OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

I can honestly say I've never read more pie in the sky fantasy than that last paragraph. Corruption is endemic in most if not all "third world economies". Every penny of aid results in more than a penny of it endind up where it shouldn't. Its just like pouring it into an open sewer.

I'm not saying "the west" is innocent, we probably taught them how to do it, but the more you pour in the worse it gets. There is no viable solution where humans remain greedy and self centred, wherever they live.

[Trickytreesreds]

I can honestly say I've never read more pie in the sky fantasy than that last paragraph. Corruption is endemic in most if not all "third world economies". Every penny of aid results in more than a penny of it endind up where it shouldn't. Its just like pouring it into an open sewer.

I'm not saying "the west" is innocent, we probably taught them how to do it, but the more you pour in the worse it gets. There is no viable solution where humans remain greedy and self centred, wherever they live.

Sorry I think this line was more telling- Yes other countries do return people at borders, but we are dealing with Refugees here

Most of those coming over, would not qualify for what is classed as refugees.
The very fact of lack of women and children only enforces that fact, never mind that they haven't been in danger since landing on any European soil.
To borrow an EU term, " you can't cherry pick"

[swaledale]

I can honestly say I've never read more pie in the sky fantasy than that last paragraph. Corruption is endemic in most if not all "third world economies". Every penny of aid results in more than a penny of it endind up where it shouldn't. Its just like pouring it into an open sewer.

I'm not saying "the west" is innocent, we probably taught them how to do it, but the more you pour in the worse it gets. There is no viable solution where humans remain greedy and self centred, wherever they live.

The pie in the sky fantasy is in your mind, one I suspect persuaded by right wing commentators. I do have a laugh when the citizens of the country with a glorious imperial past, that built its wealth on the exploitation of so called "third world countries" become all smug about corruption and this just after our own PM hands out peerages to his cronies, funders and his own brother. When a government minister is shown to have had funds and contact with a developer whose scheme he just happens to have approved overruling the local authority, yet remains in post. When a leading advisor clearly breaks government instructions, but lies about it and is backed up by the PM. I could go on but you get the drift!

Yes its true, a lot of aid doesn't actually go to where its needed, for a number of reasons, corruption is one, though ts not at the level you suggest, a lack of focus on recoridng outcomes, i.e. what the aid actually achieves and indeed Aid Agencies who like most organisations become fixated with their agenda, rather than solving the issue and getting out.

But and its big but, aid does indeed have significant positive effects, both for the people in the countries involved and indirectly for us the Uk citizen.

Some examples


In the five years from 2011 to 2016, UK aid provided almost 20 million food rations for Syrian refugees. This helps prevent them migrating and adding to our migrant issue, as well as being purely humanitarian. After all the majority would rather return to thier homes in Syria eventually.

Tackling violence against women and girls: the UK’s international aid budget funds programmers in 29 countries. Improving and educating womens lives, helps to modernise a country and improves the economic, health and welfare prospects of its citizens, it cuts down on migration.

280,000 people in Nepal received lifesaving shelter, funded by UK aid. Humanitarian aid after the earthquake.

13.2 million people were given access to TB treatment from 2002 to 2016. Curing TB and other infectious diseases not only improves the economic, health and welfare of a country but means these countries aren't reservoirs for such diseases and the source of future pandemics.

Over 10 million children are supported to get a good quality education by the UK aid budget. The more people are educated the more they can improve their prospects and the more they are able to withstand bad governance within their own country ad this does work, as has shown by East Timor where a basket case of a country was turned into a functioning democracy through foreign aid.


Yes there is corruption, but actually it depends upon the country, but ranges from 2% of the aid budget to around 20%.

0.7% of the Uk's GDP is overseas aid, that does a tremendous amount of good around the world, tackling diseases, improving food production, enabling local people to become self sustaining and able to improve their lives.

To criticise foreign aid on the basis that some of it is lost to corruption ignores outcomes that do have positive effects for the UK citizen, we are going to need to do more, if we don't then the current refugee problem is going to be a blip, climate change, food shortages disease, economic collapse will further push migrants towards europe and it will cost more to deal with them then than direct resources to correcting the issues that have forced them to leave.

Saying every penny spent on aid is like pouring it into an open sewer is not just wrong it ignores the fact and I stress fact (I know the Daily mail likes to pretend otherwise) that the vast majority of foreign aid has positive outcomes.

[AdiSalisbury]

Yeah, we just bomb the **** out of countries, that's it. Surprised our little island is capable really. All these mercenaries running around, lust for blood and that. I love a friendly Taliban fighter me. Good blokes, trust them with my daughter.

[swaledale]

Yeah, we just bomb the **** out of countries, that's it. Surprised our little island is capable really. All these mercenaries running around, lust for blood and that. I love a friendly Taliban fighter me. Good blokes, trust them with my daughter.

Ah well so your saying that the UK has never since World War 2 engaged in activities overseas which at best were questionable and at worst downright illegal? That they have not been engaged in military action which directly or indirectly has resulted in thousands of innocent civilians being killed, their homes destroyed, countries plunged into civil war?

In fact we have undertaken airstrikes in a number of countries where actually we achieved very little other than more destruction. Your oblique reference to Afghanistan is interesting - how many years have we been involved there, what has the loss of our soldiers lives achieved so far?

Not to mention of course a UK arms industry which sells to countries who use these arms to kill innocent civilians! The situation in Yemen being just one current example.

[AdiSalisbury]

Why can't an adult male claim refugee status TTR?

[Trickytreesreds]

Why can't an adult male claim refugee status TTR?

He can, but the refugee scream runs a bit thin, when there is a distinct lack of women and children. Especially when most of them fall into the 18-30 bracket. Put yourself in the situation. If you had the flee terrible UK, wouldn't your top priority be your family?

[AdiSalisbury]

The pie in the sky fantasy is in your mind, one I suspect persuaded by right wing commentators. I do have a laugh when the citizens of the country with a glorious imperial past, that built its wealth on the exploitation of so called "third world countries" become all smug about corruption and this just after our own PM hands out peerages to his cronies, funders and his own brother. When a government minister is shown to have had funds and contact with a developer whose scheme he just happens to have approved overruling the local authority, yet remains in post. When a leading advisor clearly breaks government instructions, but lies about it and is backed up by the PM. I could go on but you get the drift!

Yes its true, a lot of aid doesn't actually go to where its needed, for a number of reasons, corruption is one, though ts not at the level you suggest, a lack of focus on recoridng outcomes, i.e. what the aid actually achieves and indeed Aid Agencies who like most organisations become fixated with their agenda, rather than solving the issue and getting out.

But and its big but, aid does indeed have significant positive effects, both for the people in the countries involved and indirectly for us the Uk citizen.

Some examples


In the five years from 2011 to 2016, UK aid provided almost 20 million food rations for Syrian refugees. This helps prevent them migrating and adding to our migrant issue, as well as being purely humanitarian. After all the majority would rather return to thier homes in Syria eventually.

Tackling violence against women and girls: the UK’s international aid budget funds programmers in 29 countries. Improving and educating womens lives, helps to modernise a country and improves the economic, health and welfare prospects of its citizens, it cuts down on migration.

280,000 people in Nepal received lifesaving shelter, funded by UK aid. Humanitarian aid after the earthquake.

13.2 million people were given access to TB treatment from 2002 to 2016. Curing TB and other infectious diseases not only improves the economic, health and welfare of a country but means these countries aren't reservoirs for such diseases and the source of future pandemics.

Over 10 million children are supported to get a good quality education by the UK aid budget. The more people are educated the more they can improve their prospects and the more they are able to withstand bad governance within their own country ad this does work, as has shown by East Timor where a basket case of a country was turned into a functioning democracy through foreign aid.


Yes there is corruption, but actually it depends upon the country, but ranges from 2% of the aid budget to around 20%.

0.7% of the Uk's GDP is overseas aid, that does a tremendous amount of good around the world, tackling diseases, improving food production, enabling local people to become self sustaining and able to improve their lives.

To criticise foreign aid on the basis that some of it is lost to corruption ignores outcomes that do have positive effects for the UK citizen, we are going to need to do more, if we don't then the current refugee problem is going to be a blip, climate change, food shortages disease, economic collapse will further push migrants towards europe and it will cost more to deal with them then than direct resources to correcting the issues that have forced them to leave.

Saying every penny spent on aid is like pouring it into an open sewer is not just wrong it ignores the fact and I stress fact (I know the Daily mail likes to pretend otherwise) that the vast majority of foreign aid has positive outcomes.

**** me, I actually agree with most of that. Is this the field you actually work in?

[ramAnag]

**** me, I actually agree with most of that. Is this the field you actually work in?

I suspect not, given Swales’ comments regarding his earnings and Brexit...it is though one of the best and most informed posts I’ve read on here for a very long time.

[swaledale]

I suspect not, given Swales’ comments regarding his earnings and Brexit...it is though one of the best and most informed posts I’ve read on here for a very long time.

Actually rA I have worked in this field and still have an interest in it, there is much that can be criticised, including how some aid programmes seem designed to maximise the time an agency stays in the field, well lets face it who works to put themselves out of a job? I'll give you an example where funds were focused on treating the suffers of malaria in one country, but not at preventative measures and training local staff to both undertake these. Much has improved, but there are still a lot of idealistic "we here to save you poor souls" attitudes, rather than we can help you help yourselves.

Not sure why you'd say my earnings would be an issue either, theres some Uk people making big bucks, which IMO are unjustified but hey ho. personally I've never ripped anyone off in my life, its not how I did business and getting such a reputation would have been a disaster.

The 2% to 20% range is based on operating in certain countries, some are relatively free of corruption, others Afghanistan being one aren't.