OT Trump prematurely ejaculates

[swaledale]

You were right not to tar Irish people with the same brush. Some were dangerous and some weren't. The majority of Irish, the peaceful Irish, didn't go around bombing people. But it's different with Islam. I tar all muslims with the same brush because they read the same book and would find themselves in an awkward situation if asked to reject what the Quran demands of them. If the non-violent muslims ccame out and forcefully rejected the horrors of their holy book, I'd regard them as honest and peaceful. But they don't. The vast majority haven't even read it never mind discuss it.

You really must control that temper of yours.

What temper is that? I have a irritation with ignorance as saying "the horrors" of their holy book, when its no more violent or full of horrors than the Bible! lets face it, Christians have done any number of vile things following that!

The vast majority of Muslims don't go round committing violent acts or even supporting those that do. Still if you blind to that fact then your blind I guess.

What it all boils down to is a person's interpretation of whats written down and as with the bible that interpretation can vary almost infinitely. on a point of fact non-violent Muslims do frequently condemn the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But as with so called Christian countries, religion gets mixed up with political issues, what is said and done in the name of a god very rarely bears any relation to what is actually written in the book.

[Andy_Faber]

What temper is that? I have a irritation with ignorance as saying "the horrors" of their holy book, when its no more violent or full of horrors than the Bible! lets face it, Christians have done any number of vile things following that!

The vast majority of Muslims don't go round committing violent acts or even supporting those that do. Still if you blind to that fact then your blind I guess.

What it all boils down to is a person's interpretation of whats written down and as with the bible that interpretation can vary almost infinitely. on a point of fact non-violent Muslims do frequently condemn the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But as with so called Christian countries, religion gets mixed up with political issues, what is said and done in the name of a god very rarely bears any relation to what is actually written in the book.

The problem with the 'most Muslims aren't terrorists' argument is that whilst that may be true, the inverse - most terrorists are Muslims - IS true, an assertion easily proved by digging out the list of folk convicted under terrorism acts over, lets say, the last 20 years. It would appear that, across the channel, Monsieur Macron has had enough and has started calling it for what it is, a concerted attempt to impose a minority's belief system on an emasculated majority. Its ironic to me that Brexit was decided by a significant minority using it as a protest vote against immigration (partly European but also Muslim) yet the EU's new poster boy and self appointed emerging leader now appears to be pushing EU towards a stronger 'restricted immigration/preservation of local belief systems' direction of travel in any case

[swaledale]

The problem with the 'most Muslims aren't terrorists' argument is that whilst that may be true, the inverse - most terrorists are Muslims - IS true, an assertion easily proved by digging out the list of folk convicted under terrorism acts over, lets say, the last 20 years. It would appear that, across the channel, Monsieur Macron has had enough and has started calling it for what it is, a concerted attempt to impose a minority's belief system on an emasculated majority. Its ironic to me that Brexit was decided by a significant minority using it as a protest vote against immigration (partly European but also Muslim) yet the EU's new poster boy and self appointed emerging leader now appears to be pushing EU towards a stronger 'restricted immigration/preservation of local belief systems' direction of travel in any case

The problem with that is pick any decade over the last 60 years and you have a range of factions, groups etc even nation states, who were the dominant activists at any particular time. There might if you thought about it be just a few clues as to why this is the case. To label Muslims as one homogenous group is typical lazy thinking!

Ah you ahve just demonstrated your interpretation of what Macron is doing, he is actually defending France as a secular nation and your interpretation of what the terrorist acts in France are also wide of the mark. Its not a an attempt to impose minority's belief system, its the action of the few radical crazy's, its not even organised just deranged individuals.

You don't have to look far to see a country where radical christians adopt the same tactics!

As for immigration, this requires a concerted plan to resolve the issues of why people migrate, it isn't possible to simply stop them coming, but if one removes the incentives, which are generally war, poverty etc then it would be much reduced. The Eu and other western countries could do this if they wanted to, it takes a concerted approach and cooperative working.

[ramAnag]

No, I'm not, ramAnag. There is no such thing as Islamism.

By the way, how much shall we say...£30-00?

I don’t understand this denial strategy of yours.
Islamists are those who support Islamic militancy and fundamentalism. The ones you, and I, are so uncomfortable with...the fundamentalist political wing of the Muslim faith if you like.
Again the parallels with the IRA are relevant. All Islamists are Muslims but few Muslims are Islamists, just as all members of the IRA were almost certainly Catholic but the majority of Catholics abhorred the methods of the IRA.

As for the bet...I’m not usually a betting man so I’ll stick with the £20 thanks. Don’t get too cocky...it may be approaching mid November but there are still 105 points to play for.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Swale: "The Eu and other western countries could do this if they wanted to, it takes a concerted approach and cooperative working."

On the subject of being simplistic 😉

I genuinely cannot see how you can contend this. For sure Western oil wars contribute a lot to this, but ISIS etc is moslem on moslem, as we're the Iran-Iraq wars, invasion of kuwait, then there was Russian invasion of Afghanistan, not West. Its far from all being down to western interference although I won't deny western behind the scenes...

To blame sunni/shiite infighting on the West would be akin to blaming catholic/protestant infighting on the Jews, for example.

Furthermore the sources of a lot of the refugee / immigration are amongst the wealthiest countries in the world based on oil and the west's craving for it. This wealth is focussed on a tiny group of families who seem broadly opposed to sharing, preferring to squander much of it on piss poor Western football teams rather than using it to help their people out of poverty.

So how exactly do you propose to lift these millions of people out of self inflicted religious based civil wars and a poverty that their own leaders will not address?

As has been seen in Africa pouring money in does little to help the people but simply adds more wealth to the few and certainly doesn't stop factional infighting.

The objective may be laudable but the solutions are next to impossible to my mind.

[GUNTERYY36]

What temper is that? I have a irritation with ignorance as saying "the horrors" of their holy book, when its no more violent or full of horrors than the Bible! lets face it, Christians have done any number of vile things following that!

The vast majority of Muslims don't go round committing violent acts or even supporting those that do. Still if you blind to that fact then your blind I guess.

What it all boils down to is a person's interpretation of whats written down and as with the bible that interpretation can vary almost infinitely. on a point of fact non-violent Muslims do frequently condemn the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But as with so called Christian countries, religion gets mixed up with political issues, what is said and done in the name of a god very rarely bears any relation to what is actually written in the book.

It is a widely held misconception that the Bible and the Quran are full of violent acts and events and therefore one is no more of a danger than the other. That is untrue. I'm no expert on religious and religious belief(s) but my understanding is that the Bible is a chronicle of events that by and large are (hopefully) a thing of the past. The Quran, on the other hand, mandates all muslims, past and present, to engage in holy jihad against the unbelievers. We hear much about the Quran but no one ever discusses its contents. Yet we are told that 'terrorists' misinterpret the word of Allah. They don't. They cry 'Allahu Akbar' after stabbings and beheadings because they are orrthodox musliims who act according to the tenets of their (and all muslims) holy book. There can be no such thing as peaceful muslims. If they ever take the trouble to read what they hold so dear then muslims will abandom their faith. Some do. Then they become apostates and are too scared to abandon their faith and beliefs for obvious reasons.

You're right to say non-violent muslims condemn atrocities carried out in the name of Islam but only because they aren't aware of what the Quran says and demands of them.

[GUNTERYY36]

The problem with that is pick any decade over the last 60 years and you have a range of factions, groups etc even nation states, who were the dominant activists at any particular time. There might if you thought about it be just a few clues as to why this is the case. To label Muslims as one homogenous group is typical lazy thinking!

Ah you ahve just demonstrated your interpretation of what Macron is doing, he is actually defending France as a secular nation and your interpretation of what the terrorist acts in France are also wide of the mark. Its not a an attempt to impose minority's belief system, its the action of the few radical crazy's, its not even organised just deranged individuals.

You don't have to look far to see a country where radical christians adopt the same tactics!

As for immigration, this requires a concerted plan to resolve the issues of why people migrate, it isn't possible to simply stop them coming, but if one removes the incentives, which are generally war, poverty etc then it would be much reduced. The Eu and other western countries could do this if they wanted to, it takes a concerted approach and cooperative working.

President Macron is not merely overreacting to the actions of a 'few radical crazys'. He is dealing with the threat posed by muslims (as described above) and its refusal to allow free speech. He understands that the overwhelmiing majjorityy of muslims reject the idea of insulting their Prrophet and are willing to protest violently until Macron apologises. This objection to Macron and is decision to clamp down on the spread of radical Islam is, not surprisingly, creating widespread protests throughout many countries in the East although admitteedly
these violent protests are not helped by inflammotaryy comments by Pakistani leaders.

It's possible to argue that Macron has one eye on the forthcoming Ffrence election, knoweing that Le Penn may well increase her vote but that's a different matter.

[GUNTERYY36]

I don’t understand this denial strategy of yours.
Islamists are those who support Islamic militancy and fundamentalism. The ones you, and I, are so uncomfortable with...the fundamentalist political wing of the Muslim faith if you like.
Again the parallels with the IRA are relevant. All Islamists are Muslims but few Muslims are Islamists, just as all members of the IRA were almost certainly Catholic but the majority of Catholics abhorred the methods of the IRA.

As for the bet...I’m not usually a betting man so I’ll stick with the £20 thanks. Don’t get too cocky...it may be approaching mid November but there are still 105 points to play for.

I'm a betting man and know a dead cert when I see it.

[Andy_Faber]

The problem with that is pick any decade over the last 60 years and you have a range of factions, groups etc even nation states, who were the dominant activists at any particular time. There might if you thought about it be just a few clues as to why this is the case. To label Muslims as one homogenous group is typical lazy thinking!

Ah you ahve just demonstrated your interpretation of what Macron is doing, he is actually defending France as a secular nation and your interpretation of what the terrorist acts in France are also wide of the mark. Its not a an attempt to impose minority's belief system, its the action of the few radical crazy's, its not even organised just deranged individuals.

You don't have to look far to see a country where radical christians adopt the same tactics!

As for immigration, this requires a concerted plan to resolve the issues of why people migrate, it isn't possible to simply stop them coming, but if one removes the incentives, which are generally war, poverty etc then it would be much reduced. The Eu and other western countries could do this if they wanted to, it takes a concerted approach and cooperative working.

I'll offer a reasonable response to a reasonable message from you, but unless I have you wrong I'm guessing you have no idea of how things work 'on the ground' in the area of faith and as a person of faith and regular attender of places of worship I do, so I'm coming from a position of greater insight on some of this

I'm aware that there are many groups within the group who consider themselves Muslims, ironically I recruited a Chinese national Uigur (into a Chinese company!) a few years ago and learned lot about oppression of minorities. Without resorting to any particular label, those who perpetrate acts of terror mainly come from a few groups within the whole demographic

Macron's fightback is against those for whom the response to the question 'which should prevail, the values of your religion or the values of your country?' would be the former. Regretably the 'crazies' are a very small tip of a very very big iceberg here.


pointing the finger at 'radical Christians' is the usual tactic of the apologist and certainly in UK the number of terror attacks where the perp has been identified or has self identfied as Christian is zero

As for reducing immigration by 'a concerted approach and co-operative working', no chance, Geoff makes most of the points which shows such assertions as pure pie in the sky idealism

[MadAmster]

Last week a Dutch teacher had to go into hiding following threats made against him. For the past 5 years a cartoon has been hanging in his classroom showing some random terrorist holding a bloody machete. The other character is wearing a T shirt with the words Charlie Hebdo on it, the figure has been beheaded and has a tongue sticking out of the open neck. For 5 years he has used it in lessons on, amongst other things, freedom of speech in a secular society.

An 18 year old girl has been arrested for her part in the threats and more arrests are expected. The reason given for the threats was that you must not display cartoons of the prophet..... it isn't a cartoon of the prophet.....