Matchday thread: Derby v Lincoln

[Andy_Faber]

4.5 average would be below par if we had paid fees for these players. As I don't think we have (and assuming the wages weren't excessive) then I'd suggest the expectation par would fall such that his recruitment isn't as bad as suggested

Yet using the same (of course subjective) assessment of Roseniors knocked together squad I arrive at around 7, with poor James Chester the only fail, so the comparison shows a shortcoming

[ramAnag]

Yet using the same (of course subjective) assessment of Roseniors knocked together squad I arrive at around 7, with poor James Chester the only fail, so the comparison shows a shortcoming

You rest my case!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yet using the same (of course subjective) assessment of Roseniors knocked together squad I arrive at around 7, with poor James Chester the only fail, so the comparison shows a shortcoming

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

[swaledale]

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Nail on the head hit!!

[ramAnag]

I think such comparisons are a tad iniquitous. We had zero expectation of Rosenior's hurriedly patched up squad, so it's performance across a handful of games would always have looked reasonable. Fans expectations (with the usual rapid forgetting of the recent past) rapidly escalated and so when PW's recruits didn't tear the league apart, they were suddenly crap.

Sure there have been failures (eg in the loan market in particular) but the less you pay, the greater incidence there will be of abject failure or, conversely, surprise success. Playing the free transfer market is hit or miss.

Look at the sainted Manchester United and it's transfer policy. Even with their massive resources, they have recently spunked away over £ 200 million on strikers Anthony (no goals, no assists in 19 games) Hojland (no league goals, no assists in 15 games) and Sancho (no comment needed). Yet their manager seems to be (curiously) untouchable, no doubt based on past successes. PW has had past success.

Managers need luck in recruiting, no matter how much they have to spend. The less money they have, the moe luck they need. Maybe LR was more lucky, maybe he is a better manager (Hull are doing well,) but frankly it doesn't matter. He isn't our manager now. No point looking back with rose tinted glasses.

All good...except that ‘Rosenior’s hurriedly patched up squad’ wasn’t judged on a ‘handful of games’. It was (Springett’s and White’s minimal contributions apart) the squad that got us to 7th last season.

[MadAmster]

Springett, White and Embleton can all be put on the fail list, IMO

Ward, John-Jules, Bradley, Washington and Elder all go on the undecided list. Some due to injury problems. others due to not hitting the heights expected of them

Vickers, Nyambe, Waghorn (up to his injury woes), Fornah, Wilson and Nelson can be viewed as reasonable to good signings IMO

Seeing that we haven't paid a penny on transfer fees (YET... I believe Fornah and Washington might cost a few bob if the KPI's in the contracts are met), 6 out of 14 isn't bad but can't be considered good either.

[Geoff Parkstone]

All good...except that ‘Rosenior’s hurriedly patched up squad’ wasn’t judged on a ‘handful of games’. It was (Springett’s and White’s minimal contributions apart) the squad that got us to 7th last season.

On which basis Warne's squad is to date better... If you want to credit Rosenior's squad for 7th based on a full season where he only ran the team for a handful of games, then the new Warne squad (including players that predated him,) must be considered better as we are now 4th.

You can't have it both ways!

Was success down to recruitment or day to day management? Why was Rosenior binned so quickly? All good questions but introspective and ultimately pointless.

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

[MadAmster]

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

Luck - not had much much of that, certainly not our fair share. Bolton away, 2 nailed on penalties not given. Good goal disallowed to give us a penalty (in fairness to the ref, he did blow well before the ball went in the net). Then gave Notlob a penalty for an offence committed outside the box....

Injuries - more than our fair share of those.

Tactics - Started the season with PWs favoured 3 at the back with limited success. Once we got Nyambe in a 4 worked very well.

Player performance - Who has performed well? Wildsmith, Nelson, Cashin, Nyambe, Collins, NML once he got going. The rest have been pretty much up and down swapping between 1 and 3 decent games with a similar amount of average at best games. Of late passing to a teammate has become a problem.

[ramAnag]

On which basis Warne's squad is to date better... If you want to credit Rosenior's squad for 7th based on a full season where he only ran the team for a handful of games, then the new Warne squad (including players that predated him,) must be considered better as we are now 4th.

You can't have it both ways!

Was success down to recruitment or day to day management? Why was Rosenior binned so quickly? All good questions but introspective and ultimately pointless.

We must judge success holistically - at the moment, having played over 90% of the division once, we are among the top 6. It's due to a number of factors, recruitment being just one (important) factor. As is luck, injuries, tactics, player performance etc.

You can’t help but ‘credit Rosenior’s squad for 7th’, GP. Everyone accepts that Springett and White added little so it was Rosenior’s squad that finished the season, where he had left them, in seventh.

I’m honestly not trying to ‘have it both ways’ and you can’t say now that, because we’re currently 4th, we must be better. Last season under Warne we went, if I remember correctly, from 7th to...7th via the brief vertigo inducing heights of third and the depths of twelfth. It’s where we are in May that matters along with what PW can pull out of the ‘hat’ in the January sales to strengthen our squad.

Is Rosenior ‘better’ than Warne? In my opinion, ‘yes’, but, as you’ve suggested, it just doesn’t matter because what’s done is done.

Is the current squad stronger? It certainly should be because we brought in a great deal more than we shipped out during the summer and I think, certainly in terms of us having more cover, it probably is...yes...but I still feel that, with today’s squad the players I feel we’d miss most are Wildsmith, Cashin, NML and Bird along with, to a slightly less consistent extent, Collins, Hourihane and Smith. Only Nelson, Nyambe (if he’s still here) and Wilson (when available) of Warne’s dozen summer signings generate the same feelings in me.

Finally...it’s repeatedly suggested that you can’t get a twenty goal a season striker on a free. Well Rosenior managed it, in the most appalling circumstances 17 months ago and actually Collins isn’t far off target for managing the same feat this season. So...absolutely no point moaning about Rosenior though I remain grateful for what he did for us. What matters now is where Warne can guide us and that begins, as did this whole argument, with, imo, his improved showing in the January window.

[ramAnag]

You can’t help but ‘credit Rosenior’s squad for 7th’, GP. Everyone accepts that Springett and White added little so it was Rosenior’s squad that finished the season, where he had left them, in seventh.

I’m honestly not trying to ‘have it both ways’ and you can’t say now that, because we’re currently 4th, we must be better. Last season under Warne we went, if I remember correctly, from 7th to...7th via the brief vertigo inducing heights of third and the depths of twelfth. It’s where we are in May that matters along with what PW can pull out of the ‘hat’ in the January sales to strengthen our squad.

Is Rosenior ‘better’ than Warne? In my opinion, ‘yes’, but, as you’ve suggested, it just doesn’t matter because what’s done is done.

Is the current squad stronger? It certainly should be because we brought in a great deal more than we shipped out during the summer and I think, certainly in terms of us having more cover, it probably is...yes...but I still feel that, with today’s squad the players I feel we’d miss most are Wildsmith, Cashin, NML and Bird along with, to a slightly less consistent extent, Collins, Hourihane and Smith. Only Nelson, Nyambe (if he’s still here) and Wilson (when available) of Warne’s dozen summer signings generate the same feelings in me.

Finally...it’s repeatedly suggested that you can’t get a twenty goal a season striker on a free. Well Rosenior managed it, in the most appalling circumstances 17 months ago and actually Collins isn’t far off target for managing the same feat this season. So...absolutely no point moaning about Rosenior though I remain grateful for what he did for us. What matters now is where Warne can guide us and that begins, as did this whole argument, with, imo, his improved showing in the January window.

P.S. Sorry...forgot Forsyth from that initial group of four.