O/T:- Men in women's teams

[slack_pie]

Puberty blockers don't change someone's ***. But they can be of immense medical help, if given carefully and appropriately (and it is unfortunately true that that has not always been the case). They're helpful both to kids with precocious puberty and for kids with gender dysphoria.

Mankind is also getting better at understanding differences. Trans people exist. It's not a question of whim or decision or fetish. It is a question of how society tolerates them.

Trans people do indeed exist, although I'm not sure anybody really understands the factors that combine for someone to be or become trans. One thing seems fairly certain, however: someone born a man is not and cannot ever be a woman. I mean literally, by definition.

They may feel like they are a woman, but even that feeling is a base on an untruth - a man (i.e. someone born with male physiology) cannot know what it feels like to be a woman. It's not possible. Even after all the surgery and treatment in the world, that man will still not know what it feels like to be a woman.

Society should treat trans people with dignity and respect, just like any other person. But what people "identify" as often has no relation to what they actually are. Rules and laws should reflect what people are, not what they feel identify as. Anything else seems completely bonkers to me. Anybody could identify as anything on any given day. How do you organise a society in a sensible way in such a world?

[OchPie]

I don't have any real idea what it is to be "a man" in its generic sense. I know what it's like to be me. I can maybe see how, in the interactions I've experienced, I'm treated as "a man" by others - though there are lots of other potential drivers of that treatment too. But how on earth can anyone generalise? How do I possibly know what other men think it's "like to be a man"? I don't get the argument at all.

And what does "born a man" even mean? If someone is sure they are born a woman but has the physical appearance of a man, why decide it's that physical appearance that matters? If someone is born XY, are they a man? If they give birth, are they still a man? Did whether they are a man change when they got pregnant?

Ultimately we don't let people switch identities like that (though perhaps we should?) - people who want to change their markers from M to F or the other way round have to go through a specified, and not quick, process in order to do so. But the idea of pointing at a trans woman and just demanding they expect to be called, treated as, and exist as a man doesn't sit at all well with me either. What makes anyone else know better who they are?

[maddogslater]

The regional Australia viewpoint is without a doubt the best.

Think they should try and persuade the crocs to transition to veggies 🤓

[Chicken Balti Pie]

I don't have any real idea what it is to be "a man" in its generic sense. I know what it's like to be me. I can maybe see how, in the interactions I've experienced, I'm treated as "a man" by others - though there are lots of other potential drivers of that treatment too. But how on earth can anyone generalise? How do I possibly know what other men think it's "like to be a man"? I don't get the argument at all.

And what does "born a man" even mean? If someone is sure they are born a woman but has the physical appearance of a man, why decide it's that physical appearance that matters? If someone is born XY, are they a man? If they give birth, are they still a man? Did whether they are a man change when they got pregnant?

Ultimately we don't let people switch identities like that (though perhaps we should?) - people who want to change their markers from M to F or the other way round have to go through a specified, and not quick, process in order to do so. But the idea of pointing at a trans woman and just demanding they expect to be called, treated as, and exist as a man doesn't sit at all well with me either. What makes anyone else know better who they are?

Speaking to an endocrinologist friend of mine, it is quite simple. The female body is a finely tuned and utterly complex minefield for hormonal balance, a lot that changes mood and behaviour. He likened it to a woman's system being that of an F1 car, highly tuned but the smallest deviation can cause mayhem. Men on the other hand was described as the Flintstones car, simple, and pretty much runs on testosterone (he was generalising but still). I think Slack's view point is valid, we can make people look aesthetically like a woman, but there is no way we can create or mimic the mayhem and obscene complexity that is the female hormonal balance of a woman and all of the complexities that come with that. It is purely a veneer, and to think anything other than that is doing a disservice to women with what they have to go through hormonally and what that entails. Men often make crude jokes about "that time of the month", that's not even the start of it and I have a deep down appreciation of women and thank God I don't have to deal with it

[slack_pie]

Speaking to an endocrinologist friend of mine, it is quite simple. The female body is a finely tuned and utterly complex minefield for hormonal balance, a lot that changes mood and behaviour. He likened it to a woman's system being that of an F1 car, highly tuned but the smallest deviation can cause mayhem. Men on the other hand was described as the Flintstones car, simple, and pretty much runs on testosterone (he was generalising but still). I think Slack's view point is valid, we can make people look aesthetically like a woman, but there is no way we can create or mimic the mayhem and obscene complexity that is the female hormonal balance of a woman and all of the complexities that come with that. It is purely a veneer, and to think anything other than that is doing a disservice to women with what they have to go through hormonally and what that entails. Men often make crude jokes about "that time of the month", that's not even the start of it and I have a deep down appreciation of women and thank God I don't have to deal with it

Agree with all that! Interesting insights from your friend - makes sense from experience

[slack_pie]

I don't have any real idea what it is to be "a man" in its generic sense. I know what it's like to be me. I can maybe see how, in the interactions I've experienced, I'm treated as "a man" by others - though there are lots of other potential drivers of that treatment too. But how on earth can anyone generalise? How do I possibly know what other men think it's "like to be a man"? I don't get the argument at all.

And what does "born a man" even mean? If someone is sure they are born a woman but has the physical appearance of a man, why decide it's that physical appearance that matters? If someone is born XY, are they a man? If they give birth, are they still a man? Did whether they are a man change when they got pregnant?

Ultimately we don't let people switch identities like that (though perhaps we should?) - people who want to change their markers from M to F or the other way round have to go through a specified, and not quick, process in order to do so. But the idea of pointing at a trans woman and just demanding they expect to be called, treated as, and exist as a man doesn't sit at all well with me either. What makes anyone else know better who they are?

Perhaps you're overthinking this? Of course everyone has their own experience, and nobody knows what it's like to be anyone else. Hell, for all I know, I'm the only sentient being in the universe. But on a basic biological level, there are physiological differences between a man and a woman. Those difference cannot be ironed out by current medical treatments or explained away. They are objective truths. And as CBP pointed out, they go beyond what we can see. Men and women are completely different on the hormonal level, and that's what drives our development.

Being born a man means being born with XY chromosomes and having male reproductive organs. Being born a woman means having XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs. Sure, there are some cases that don't fall into these categories, but when we're talking about trans issues, we're almost always talking about men who feel like they are women or vice versa. The point is that whatever they feel, they're still feeling it through the lens of their ***, which cannot be changed.

To answer your question, if someone can get pregnant and give birth, they are a woman by definition. It doesn't matter what they think they are. They can identify as whatever they want - that's their business - but that private subjective world cannot be allowed to override objective reality, otherwise nothing makes sense anymore.

[OchPie]

Perhaps you're overthinking this? Of course everyone has their own experience, and nobody knows what it's like to be anyone else. Hell, for all I know, I'm the only sentient being in the universe. But on a basic biological level, there are physiological differences between a man and a woman.

Sure. But the line is a lot blurrier than a lot of people would like. And really that takes me to my real point:

Being born a man means being born with XY chromosomes and having male reproductive organs. Being born a woman means having XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs. Sure, there are some cases that don't fall into these categories, but when we're talking about trans issues, we're almost always talking about men who feel like they are women or vice versa.

"Feel like they are" is pretty dismissive for what is a lot more than "I feel like a curry tonight". As far as most trans people are concerned, they KNOW their ***. So why don't they "fall into these categories"? We've learned about chromosomal issues that make the binary difficult. Why can't a sense of being trans be that as well?

(For what it's worth, many studies suggest a steady equalisation in the number of trans men and trans women in a society. Trans men are very often erased from the conversation but they absolutely exist too.)

[OchPie]

Speaking to an endocrinologist friend of mine, it is quite simple. The female body is a finely tuned and utterly complex minefield for hormonal balance, a lot that changes mood and behaviour. He likened it to a woman's system being that of an F1 car, highly tuned but the smallest deviation can cause mayhem. Men on the other hand was described as the Flintstones car, simple, and pretty much runs on testosterone (he was generalising but still).

Well yes, but to be clear that's about the balance of hormones. There's no difference in which hormones men and women have. The difference is how much of each they have and the way their level changes over time. Men have a 24 hour cycle, women have a 28 day one.

Your friend is right, but we're still all pretty much made of the same stuff. The idea that a sense of self should be strictly ***ed when pretty much all the differences are a result of development - the reason developmental issues can lead to differences of *** development in the first place - just seems odd to me. And honestly, with echoes of the old argument "we are biologically designed to reproduce, people are denying biological reality to call themselves gay".

[slack_pie]

Sure. But the line is a lot blurrier than a lot of people would like. And really that takes me to my real point:



"Feel like they are" is pretty dismissive for what is a lot more than "I feel like a curry tonight". As far as most trans people are concerned, they KNOW their ***. So why don't they "fall into these categories"? We've learned about chromosomal issues that make the binary difficult. Why can't a sense of being trans be that as well?

The "As far as most trans people are concerned" part pretty much proves my point. There's often a difference between that and reality. If a trans woman is absolutely convinced that they're a woman, they say that they "know" they are one, it doesn't make them a woman. Nothing will make them a woman, at least not in the biological sense. We can make them a woman be redefining what it means to be a woman, but that's a slippery slope that involves all sorts of mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance to achieve.

I'm not being dismissive. Feeling like you are the opposite *** to what you actually are is clearly a way bigger, more important matter than feeling like eating a curry. One is a personal or even existential crisis of sorts, the other is a fleeting fancy. I think you're being a bit facetious there. I'm not underplaying what trans people are going through. It's possible to be empathetic towards trans people's issues while simultaneously not being willing to concede ground on what constitutes a man or a woman.

[Mapperleypie]

How many people that have gone through puberty as a male have gone on to win Olympic Gold as a woman or been part of a woman's team that have won a world championship?

It's a classic wedge issue that really is way less prevalent than the air time it receives.