O/t - Church of England

[KerrAvon]

I think my lifetime may be a deal shorter than the stories around scouting organisations would point at, certainly in terms of volume.

No. The main difference is that one branch exists because of lies told years ago, and countless stories added to the original lies in order to retain credibility, and although there are known issues with what children are taught (history and maths are two known to me), they fundamentally empower people with the truth about the world and encourage them to think (relatively) freely.

Essentially, one is about preserving a series of lies, the other about developing truths. Contact and varying levels of abuse may exist in both, but the former is significantly more dangerous because of the preservation of all of its lies, and the fact that for various reasons abuse takes place in such incredible frequencies even if we don't look at cases on a 'per capita' basis or any other such metric.

I will never be anything other than amazed that these organisations exist in the modern world, and that's purely based on the ridiculousness of them - the fact they also serve as some kind of industrial scale grooming service without instilling a deep level of hatred from more outsiders is all the more absurd.

I'm not sure that I follow the point that you are making about the volume of complaints of abuse within the Scouts. They bankrupted the Scouting movement in the US. That sounds pretty industrial to me.

Perhaps one day people will realise that the Scouting movement is the problem.......full stop.

I think we can agree that schools and churches have different functions and I don't disagree with the notion that religions and the structures that grow up around them have caused a good deal of harm throughout history. I don't know whether I would fully agree with your rather bleak assessment though. I?m not religious and would like to hear from the other side of the argument before reaching a view.

Where we disagree is the notion that abuse within a religious context is 'significantly more dangerous because of the preservation of all of its lies'. How would you explain that one to a victim of abuse in a secular school or the boy scouts? Would you tell them not to worry because they were 'only' victims of a 'significantly less dangerous form of abuse'?

As an aside, I would recommend the film 'Heretic' which is currently on in cinemas. It's worth the entrance fee just for Hugh Grant?s performance, but there are themes within the film that would resonate with you.

[KerrAvon]

For someone who claims to be part of the legal profession I can't believe how out of touch you seem to be with what investigative journalists do.
I have a friend who is in a senior position at ITV and is currently leading a detailed investigation into something that was broken over a year ago but is apparently far more serious than we have been told so far. There is a lot more to come on that story so the investigation is digging deep into the details to expose the truth.
It's not all about scoops as you seem to believe.

I know that your chum won't get many scoops if he keeps telling people what he's working on.

[Spuddy Speight]

Ironically the media tend to wait until some miscreants pass away before exposing the misdemeanours of their alleged heinous crimes.
There then follows a media frenzy until almost zilch is actually achieved until the next time such scandals are exposed.


For what it's worth my mum and dad would never let me join the Boy Scouts. They told me it would have only interfered with my school work and football. Lol.

[UlleyMiller]

I'm not sure that I follow the point that you are making about the volume of complaints of abuse within the Scouts. They bankrupted the Scouting movement in the US. That sounds pretty industrial to me.

Perhaps one day people will realise that the Scouting movement is the problem.......full stop.

I think we can agree that schools and churches have different functions and I don't disagree with the notion that religions and the structures that grow up around them have caused a good deal of harm throughout history. I don't know whether I would fully agree with your rather bleak assessment though. I?m not religious and would like to hear from the other side of the argument before reaching a view.

Where we disagree is the notion that abuse within a religious context is 'significantly more dangerous because of the preservation of all of its lies'. How would you explain that one to a victim of abuse in a secular school or the boy scouts? Would you tell them not to worry because they were 'only' victims of a 'significantly less dangerous form of abuse'?

As an aside, I would recommend the film 'Heretic' which is currently on in cinemas. It's worth the entrance fee just for Hugh Grant?s performance, but there are themes within the film that would resonate with you.

So had I argued that guns are devastating and should receive a widespread ban because of how dangerous they are, you'd suggest I was being dismissive of knitting needles and their victims based on that one case of a knitting needle stabbing?

Childish logic.

[KerrAvon]

How is it childish, Ulley?

Your argument isn't about the difference between guns and knitting needles. You seem to be saying that being shot in a church is more 'dangerous' than being shot in a school. There's no logic there at all that I can discern. Just prejudice based upon your obvious dislike of religion.

[Jocksgloves1]

They kept a book of them. Easily accessible and available at any library or one of their franchises.

Not much room for a discussion there, but I respect your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[animallittle3]

Ironically the media tend to wait until some miscreants pass away before exposing the misdemeanours of their alleged heinous crimes.
There then follows a media frenzy until almost zilch is actually achieved until the next time such scandals are exposed.


For what it's worth my mum and dad would never let me join the Boy Scouts. They told me it would have only interfered with my school work and football. Lol.

I think that's more to do with the victims - survivors coming forward after their abuser has died which was the case with Jimmy Seville and recently Mohammed El - Fayed .

Their wealth and fame often provides a protective ring around them and I dare say the authorities lack enthusiasm to investigate any allegations with real intent .

That kind of environment wouldn't be easy for any victim - survivor to come forward whilst also dealing with trauma or mental health issues they may have because of their very unfortunate experiences .

[mellowmiller]

I know that your chum won't get many scoops if he keeps telling people what he's working on.

As a matter of fact he was on TV a few days ago exposing more unsavoury details about the Post Office scandal and he's also working on a couple of new stories.
However, you always come across as one of those people who always think they're right about everything so I'll leave you to it now.

[mellowmiller]

I think that's more to do with the victims - survivors coming forward after their abuser has died which was the case with Jimmy Seville and recently Mohammed El - Fayed .

Their wealth and fame often provides a protective ring around them and I dare say the authorities lack enthusiasm to investigate any allegations with real intent .

That kind of environment wouldn't be easy for any victim - survivor to come forward whilst also dealing with trauma or mental health issues they may have because of their very unfortunate experiences .

I think that's spot on and the abusers are often the type of people who can afford the most expensive lawyers and there'll always be someone in that profession who is prepared to defend them no matter how heinous the crimes are.
Money first, morals......what are they?

[KerrAvon]

I think that's more to do with the victims - survivors coming forward after their abuser has died which was the case with Jimmy Seville and recently Mohammed El - Fayed .

Their wealth and fame often provides a protective ring around them and I dare say the authorities lack enthusiasm to investigate any allegations with real intent .

That kind of environment wouldn't be easy for any victim - survivor to come forward whilst also dealing with trauma or mental health issues they may have because of their very unfortunate experiences .

I broadly agree with that. There is material to suggest that Saville cultivated a relationship with officers from the West Yorkshire police that resulted in some of the limited number of complaints made in his life time to be dismissed without a proper investigation.

Wealth also allows people to instruct lawyers who can threaten potentially catastrophic legal action against anyone who puts their head above the parapet.