Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

Who are these mysterious people who "won't" help themselves? I find funny that people think they are getting away with something, I mean if life was that brilliant on benefits, why aren't you doing it yourself? And no don't come back with because I have more pride and self respect!! Thats *******s, life on benefits is no sinecure.

I'll wait now for the anecdotal evidence of people on benefits who have the latest everything, drive new cars and holiday in the Caribbean!! Most of which is total horse****.

On the other hand I know quite a few "businessmen" whose declared income is far below mine but enjoy a lifestyle that is beyond what I could or would wish to fund.

I for one think paying some of the useless lummocks, the unemployable the social misfits a basic income solves more problems than it creates. Reduces crime costs to justice system, prison etc. and frankly having had the "pleasure" of employing some of them, saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

There will always be a section of society unfit for work and unable to raise their skill level to the work that is available, given that 100,000's of low skilled jobs have disappeared over the decades, what's the solution.

Mind you with AI taking over even skilled jobs, many who might have thought they were skilled and n secure jobs might be casting around for something to do!

In terms of facts its worth pointing out that 50% or thereabouts of welfare expenditure is on pensions and that tax fraud and avoidance costs the UK much more than benefit fraud and of course people on benefits spend their benefits into the local economy whereas tax fraud and avoidance tends to see the money leave the UK or not spent locally.

But of course one wouldn't get the same sense of smug self aggrandisement as is clearly enjoyed by "punching down" on the so called "skivers" rather than those cheating the economy or like P & O CEO being paid 6 figure sums and exploiting workers.

[swaledale]

So, as originally thought - and with the exception of Scotland - we are in near complete agreement.
There is however no magic wand…the country is in an almost unprecedented mess but there is, sadly, little appetite for the type of ‘quiet revolution’ that you and I probably both favour.
Corbyn proved that…probably a very principled and decent man, but a lousy leader who allowed the right wing media to demonise him and was, as a result, partly responsible for the post Referendum sh1t show we’re all familiar with.
Starmer may not be as Left wing as you would like, I get that, but over the last four years and three PM’s he’s made Labour electable again and that, imo, is the first step on the long road to our shared aspiration of a fairer and more compassionate society.

The thing is rA, in a FPTP system, a party needs a broad range of voters to vote them into power, Corbyn got the popular vote, but it was concentrated in areas where Labour would win anyway.

[ramAnag]

The thing is rA, in a FPTP system, a party needs a broad range of voters to vote them into power, Corbyn got the popular vote, but it was concentrated in areas where Labour would win anyway.

Facts remain though that, until things change, we do have a FPTP system, the winning party does need to appeal to a ‘broad range of voters’ and under Corbyn they clearly didn’t as Labour recorded their worst GE result for 84 years.

[MadAmster]

IMO, whether it's FPTP or PR or whatever, you need to appeal to more than just your core support to win an election.

[SithHappens]

IMO, whether it's FPTP or PR or whatever, you need to appeal to more than just your core support to win an election.

must admit don't fully understand but with PR don't you need a majority share of the vote? i.e 50 % plus? That never happens

[ramAnag]

must admit don't fully understand but with PR don't you need a majority share of the vote? i.e 50 % plus? That never happens

It’s bloomin’ complicated Sith and there are at least four different types of PR which we possibly need GP’s more forensic mindset to explain the minutia of. Swings and roundabouts time I think…like you I don’t understand it fully, but I can understand why the STV (Single Transferable Vote) version of PR is regarded as fairer by many.

Most people don’t even give politics as much thought as you or I and I have come across people who can’t even handle the ‘complexities’of FPTP so maybe that’s why we’ve never grasped the proverbial nettle and changed.

[Andy_Faber]

Who are these mysterious people who "won't" help themselves? I find funny that people think they are getting away with something, I mean if life was that brilliant on benefits, why aren't you doing it yourself? And no don't come back with because I have more pride and self respect!! Thats *******s, life on benefits is no sinecure.

I'll wait now for the anecdotal evidence of people on benefits who have the latest everything, drive new cars and holiday in the Caribbean!! Most of which is total horse****.

On the other hand I know quite a few "businessmen" whose declared income is far below mine but enjoy a lifestyle that is beyond what I could or would wish to fund.

I for one think paying some of the useless lummocks, the unemployable the social misfits a basic income solves more problems than it creates. Reduces crime costs to justice system, prison etc. and frankly having had the "pleasure" of employing some of them, saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

There will always be a section of society unfit for work and unable to raise their skill level to the work that is available, given that 100,000's of low skilled jobs have disappeared over the decades, what's the solution.

Mind you with AI taking over even skilled jobs, many who might have thought they were skilled and n secure jobs might be casting around for something to do!

In terms of facts its worth pointing out that 50% or thereabouts of welfare expenditure is on pensions and that tax fraud and avoidance costs the UK much more than benefit fraud and of course people on benefits spend their benefits into the local economy whereas tax fraud and avoidance tends to see the money leave the UK or not spent locally.

But of course one wouldn't get the same sense of smug self aggrandisement as is clearly enjoyed by "punching down" on the so called "skivers" rather than those cheating the economy or like P & O CEO being paid 6 figure sums and exploiting workers.

You don't usually react well to anecdotes that don't support your POV but I could offer a number of such that I know (as acquaintances, not 'know of'), who have set their stall out to 'work the system' and avoid honest graft. In fact I've helped one recently fill in a form requesting a rental allowance of some sort, happy to do so as she wasn't doing anything illegal - however, despite not working since 2014 (to my knowledge) she is going to Tunisia for two weeks in June. Not The Caribbean, but still a bit puzzling. And no its not a once in a lifetime thing, it was Turkey last year.

I do take your point about the genuinely useless, but if as you suggest you pay someone NOT to work, how does that make, lets say, a hardworking nurse living next door feel, earning marginally more but popping a ******* all day for the cause?

I don't think anyone here has any disagreement on the CEO thing, in fact I've been more outspoken than anyone on it, but that wasn't the issue being discussed

[Geoff Parkstone]

I think we all know people who "work the system", some more than others. In my case it's a South African woman who racks up huge bills on credit cards and simply ignores them for the necessary years that they get written off. Not just one but countless. Also claims rent payment support off council / tax credits, but still defaults on rent and works in the grey market whilst still claiming full benefits. Brand new phones, new cars, holidays regularly. How do I know? She openly brags about it. Should be shot /imprisoned/departed in that order

[SithHappens]

I agree I think anecdotally a lot us can point to someone who works the system.

Some more so than others. In my case they never have had the flash things in life, no new cars, no fancy overseas holidays, they have been happy 'getting by' in order not to work. I know equally, or if not more, people who work hard and struggle to get by though.

For me its the narrative in the media that the country is full of lay abouts is wrong but people will lap it up.

[MadAmster]

must admit don't fully understand but with PR don't you need a majority share of the vote? i.e 50 % plus? That never happens

Which is why there's (almost) always a coalition. here in NL tends to be one of between 3 and 5 parties. It ensures that the "sharp edges" are filed down. Extreme policy gets blocked and you get either centre right or centre left policy getting pushed.

We had an election last November. The 4 parties have just come to an agreement. They have agreed to appoint a fair few "expert" Ministers who are not necessarily aligned to a party. They are also looking at inviting qualified members of opposition parties to be Ministers. Until a patent issue sowed doubts on the integrity of a former minister belonging to the PvdA (basically Dutch Labour and as much out of touch with their original base as Labour is) was being invited to be Prime Minister. The New Cabinet is expected to be installed in the next 4 to 5 weeks.

Since the election, the old cabinet has remained "in power". Taking decisions they believe necessary. Those have to be ratified by the new 1st and 2nd chambers in order for them to happen.