OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Tricky, there are several reasons why the UK needs foreign labour.

1. Low birth rate meaning not enough UK nationals to do the work
2. Technological advances have meant that we don't have sufficient with the right education levels to do a lot of the jobs
3. There are many physically hard, menial jobs that UK folk WON'T do

None of these reasons are EU caused.

Thanks MA, saved me wasting my fingertips, but I fear in this instance you’re wasting yours.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky, there are several reasons why the UK needs foreign labour.

1. Low birth rate meaning not enough UK nationals to do the work
2. Technological advances have meant that we don't have sufficient with the right education levels to do a lot of the jobs
3. There are many physically hard, menial jobs that UK folk WON'T do

None of these reasons are EU caused.

Oh come on Maddy, most of that is easy to rebuff.

1. Where have I ever said, that no immigration wasn't needed? It's a case of controlled invited immigration and not an open door flooding. Seeing as 6 Million have applied to stay here, I'll guarantee you, there's a massive mix of Electricians down to massive gypsy families doing F -all.

2. The technology advances simply endorses what I said about training. I could have advanced my education by full time education, or down my chosen apprenticeship route. A 4 year trade test and 6 years of day release. Where are those careers now? Shelved out of supply and demand manipulation. OWN GOAL ON A MASSIVE SCALE! Time to readdress the balance. Engineering for example is sadly an abandoned skill in this country. As an independent country, we'd better rediscover it again quickly.

3. Don't set me off on the Brits won't do that line. The only reason foreign labour has done it, is because the pitiful money, is still better than their own economies. Seeing as the standard of living in the ex soviet bloc countries is rising very fast. Exactly how long do think they'll be wanting to do it either?

How you can say the EU caused non of this is baffling. FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT/ FLOODING THE LABOUR MARKET/ OVERLOADING SERVICES/EU LAWS- MUST PAY THEM THE SAME BENEFITS ETC.
I actually thought better of you than that.

RA save your synicism for yourself. If Maddy wants to argue then I'm game. I don't need your input, because it gave credence in some small way to your remoanerism. You're not quite as blunt as Swale, but your sneering can be just as bad.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh come on Maddy, most of that is easy to rebuff.

1. Where have I ever said, that no immigration wasn't needed? It's a case of controlled invited immigration and not an open door flooding. Seeing as 6 Million have applied to stay here, I'll guarantee you, there's a massive mix of Electricians down to massive gypsy families doing F -all.

2. The technology advances simply endorses what I said about training. I could have advanced my education by full time education, or down my chosen apprenticeship route. A 4 year trade test and 6 years of day release. Where are those careers now? Shelved out of supply and demand manipulation. OWN GOAL ON A MASSIVE SCALE! Time to readdress the balance. Engineering for example is sadly an abandoned skill in this country. As an independent country, we'd better rediscover it again quickly.

3. Don't set me off on the Brits won't do that line. The only reason foreign labour has done it, is because the pitiful money, is still better than their own economies. Seeing as the standard of living in the ex soviet bloc countries is rising very fast. Exactly how long do think they'll be wanting to do it either?

How you can say the EU caused non of this is baffling. FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT/ FLOODING THE LABOUR MARKET/ OVERLOADING SERVICES/EU LAWS- MUST PAY THEM THE SAME BENEFITS ETC.
I actually thought better of you than that.

RA save your synicism for yourself. If Maddy wants to argue then I'm game. I don't need your input, because it gave credence in some small way to your remoanerism. You're not quite as blunt as Swale, but your sneering can be just as bad.

**** NB, I think folks need to reconnect with what I said earlier about lorry drivers. The flood of east european drivers stifled wages for years. Now they are leaving there is a natural shortage as a result, QED really.

JUST FOR YOU RA-

Listen to a British trucker moaning. I've got all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8k8k1Mia2I&t=523s

[ramAnag]

Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy. The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC earlier this afternoon and which I subsequently forwarded to you after you doubted me.
I know absolutely nothing about any National Road Haulage Association report. The words I am referring to came direct from DDDC. Yes they were quoting the local gov.uk site (the UK’s largest local government website) but the context was DDDC defending their own - and Serco’s - poor performance over recent months and they quite clearly blamed Brexit for a 100,000 shortfall in HGV drivers.
If you’ve read the communique you really can’t argue with or suggest there was any ‘subconscious embellishment’ on my part. That’s just not true...my words were a direct quote.
The suggestion was even repeated by Jim Fearn of DDDC at 17.09 this evening.

[Andy_Faber]

Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy. The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC earlier this afternoon and which I subsequently forwarded to you after you doubted me.
I know absolutely nothing about any National Road Haulage Association report. The words I am referring to came direct from DDDC. Yes they were quoting the local gov.uk site (the UK’s largest local government website) but the context was DDDC defending their own - and Serco’s - poor performance over recent months and they quite clearly blamed Brexit for a 100,000 shortfall in HGV drivers.
If you’ve read the communique you really can’t argue with or suggest there was any ‘subconscious embellishment’ on my part. That’s just not true...my words were a direct quote.
The suggestion was even repeated by Jim Fearn of DDDC at 17.09 this evening.

Then I'm confused. They look different to me

Anyway, maybethe discussion has lostits purpose

[ramAnag]

Then I'm confused. They look different to me

Anyway, maybethe discussion has lostits purpose

Sorry Andy...you’re making no sense.

I post an objective on topic post about the apparent impact of Brexit upon local refuse collection backed up by a circular sent to local residents by a (Conservative) District Council.

You reply saying, very forthrightly, that the communique ‘makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage’.

I take umbrage at you effectively saying I’ve made this up and provide the quote, source and time, and further provide you privately with a full copy of the Derbyshire Dales message which categorically includes the comment that ‘the emergency situation...has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

You then apologise but in the next breath (sentence) accuse me of having ‘subconsciously embellished’ the story. How?

Finally you come up with, ‘maybe the discussion has lost its purpose’. Really?
Well it will have won’t it if otherwise reasonable contributors go into complete denial about what has been factually written?

You have every right to argue with the conclusion of the UK’s largest local government website and Jim Fearn at Derbyshire Dales District Council...after all what would they know about refuse collection/recycling compared with you and Tricky?
You cannot however argue with the simple, straightforward and proven FACT that yesterday the rural, relatively affluent and overwhelmingly Conservative Derbyshire Dales District Council pointed the finger of blame for its recent failings at the impact of Brexit.

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry Andy...you’re making no sense.

I post an objective on topic post about the apparent impact of Brexit upon local refuse collection backed up by a circular sent to local residents by a (Conservative) District Council.

You reply saying, very forthrightly, that the communique ‘makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage’.

I take umbrage at you effectively saying I’ve made this up and provide the quote, source and time, and further provide you privately with a full copy of the Derbyshire Dales message which categorically includes the comment that ‘the emergency situation...has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

You then apologise but in the next breath (sentence) accuse me of having ‘subconsciously embellished’ the story. How?

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

[ramAnag]

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

How many times? So...I, and they, have referred to Covid, problems with wages and Brexit. In the context of all the communications we, as Derbyshire Dales residents, have received that is entirely correct, but the particular quote says, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

That is all I have ever claimed. There was no qualification however much you’d like to find one, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’ is what was said and there is no avoiding that, in this case you are...stubbornly wrong. The words I quoted were the ‘exact words’.

Not sure what your problem is over this. As I remember it you didn’t even vote for bloody Brexit, but you started this off by denying that Brexit was even mentioned in the communique.

‘It makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage, in fact it doesn’t expand on use of ‘Brexit’ at all’ were the exact words you used and you were totally wrong and out of order on that.

Perhaps you’d be better off considering the consequences of a Tory Council in a Leave area laying the blame for the current widespread problems with refuse collection on Brexit, rather than trying to play semantic games with me.

[MadAmster]

Tricky, I've seen hop famers and fruit and vegetable farmers interviewed because they were having to destroy part of their crops as they couldn't harvest them all due to not being able to get enough pickers in.

To a man they said they had had some English people come in and none of them lasted 2 days. Not enough wanting the job in the first place and too much like hard work for those that did give it a go.

[QUOTE] How you can say the EU caused non of this is baffling.
1. FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT/
2. FLOODING THE LABOUR MARKET/
3. OVERLOADING SERVICES/
4. EU LAWS- MUST PAY THEM THE SAME BENEFITS ETC. [UNQUOTE]

1. Worked both ways. Look at how many Brits are now complaining that Brexit restricting their movements to the EU was NOT what they voted for.
2. Did they flood the labour market or did we only see EU citizens coming in to do the jobs UK citizens can't/won't? I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Highly skilled jobs, NHS jobs, jobs where the UK has insufficient qualified indigenous people to fill the vacancies. Ever since its inception the NHS has relied on immigrant doctors/nurses/porters etc. Then there's the menial, hard working jobs like the crop pickers and others which the indigenous people won't do and stop inside 2 days when they do have a go. At least those foreigners are putting food on the UK tables. There is also a 3rd issue neither of us has covered thus far. Namely, unscrupulous bosses. There are a lot of those about. There are those who only just manage to stick to the rules by paying immigrant workers the minimum they can get away with and use them to replace higher paid UK citizens. That's not the EU's fault. Then there's the ones who employ immigrants, both legal and illegal and also house them in very overcrowded buildings, charging them a King's ransom for the privilege. That's not the EU's fault either.
3. EU citizens pay more into UK services than they take out so are they really responsible for overloading the system? I don't believe they are.
4. It works both ways though. UK citizens had the self same benefits when they moved to work in the EU and I'm still benefitting from that. Relatively speaking there are, as a percentage, less EU citizens (3.5M - EU population 446M) in the UK than the other way round (1.2M - UK population around 65M).

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=MadAmster;39824195]Tricky, I've seen hop famers and fruit and vegetable farmers interviewed because they were having to destroy part of their crops as they couldn't harvest them all due to not being able to get enough pickers in.

To a man they said they had had some English people come in and none of them lasted 2 days. Not enough wanting the job in the first place and too much like hard work for those that did give it a go.

How you can say the EU caused non of this is baffling.
1. FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT/
2. FLOODING THE LABOUR MARKET/
3. OVERLOADING SERVICES/
4. EU LAWS- MUST PAY THEM THE SAME BENEFITS ETC. [UNQUOTE]

1. Worked both ways. Look at how many Brits are now complaining that Brexit restricting their movements to the EU was NOT what they voted for.
2. Did they flood the labour market or did we only see EU citizens coming in to do the jobs UK citizens can't/won't? I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Highly skilled jobs, NHS jobs, jobs where the UK has insufficient qualified indigenous people to fill the vacancies. Ever since its inception the NHS has relied on immigrant doctors/nurses/porters etc. Then there's the menial, hard working jobs like the crop pickers and others which the indigenous people won't do and stop inside 2 days when they do have a go. At least those foreigners are putting food on the UK tables. There is also a 3rd issue neither of us has covered thus far. Namely, unscrupulous bosses. There are a lot of those about. There are those who only just manage to stick to the rules by paying immigrant workers the minimum they can get away with and use them to replace higher paid UK citizens. That's not the EU's fault. Then there's the ones who employ immigrants, both legal and illegal and also house them in very overcrowded buildings, charging them a King's ransom for the privilege. That's not the EU's fault either.
3. EU citizens pay more into UK services than they take out so are they really responsible for overloading the system? I don't believe they are.
4. It works both ways though. UK citizens had the self same benefits when they moved to work in the EU and I'm still benefitting from that. Relatively speaking there are, as a percentage, less EU citizens (3.5M - EU population 446M) in the UK than the other way round (1.2M - UK population around 65M).

Maddy you make some valid points, some of which I agree with, some I don't.

1. Who is moaning/ how many/ when and where? Is it greater than 17.5 million?
2. Again, you evaded what I am saying-
WAGES- These jobs are menial and graft, I get that. But land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing.
Now foreign labour has worked for a while, but the longer the EU clock ticks, the less attractive it is as the standard of living gap closes.
It is exactly what I am saying with the lorry drivers, if you watched me video. Are you aware that there 80 000 fully licensed drivers in the UK now, who have refused to work in the job for the pay and conditions offered?
Try listening to the people it involves, not you and I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiPh5TLYWMI

All this because agencies and big corporates have raped the cheap EU labour on offer FACT!

4. Lets get your figures correct shall we, they look dodgy to me. I have already said that there are 6M Europeans who have applied for permenant residency, never mind the illegals bouncing around.
Of those 6M, 900 000 are Romanian. You know that country where the BBC in 2014 claimed, 50 000 Romanians AND BULGARIANS were all that will come.

As for Brits abroad. How many are retirees(like yourself), spending their pensions there and not taking up resources?
I can't see many of those 900 000 coming here for a quiet life in Clacton.