O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[Jampie]

Lo and behold there’s a Polish ex-city council speaker that agrees with Jampie’s assessment that the tractor attack was a deliberate provocation by Ukraine!

Now you're lying about what other people have said. The evidence contradicting you is in this thread. What are you playing at?

[i961pie]

My warped view?

All I’ve done is shown people’s views in their own words, but updated them with the now known source of the “error”.

As PTID says, “I expect we will discard any rogue scenarios and take action regarding the perpetrator.”

Ukraine 1, Polish Tractor 0

C’mon Poland, it’s your move!

I think you have just confirmed your first 3 words with this post.

[Old_pie]

I think you have just confirmed your first 3 words with this post.

If one looks hard enough there are people who vehemently believe the world is flat, and/or that the sun goes around the earth. It would be wrong to dismiss Andy as a fool but it is not clear what his motivation and agenda is. Perhaps he has come from a bad place but shows little sign of embracing the values of his secure adopted homeland.

The verdict into the shooting down of MH17 is expected today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63637625
No doubt Andy will argue that Russia hasn't had a fair say though they won't put forward the accused to face trial. A bit like the Salisbury Cathedral tourists from Moscow I guess.

A few days ago there was a video interview (on YouTube I think) with a Ukrainian pilot explaining the pressure he felt on shooting down missiles that were targeting their cities. Some of this action must be taking place around the Polish/Ukraine border where I expect also surface to air missiles will be launched to try and combat attacks.

[andy6025]

If one looks hard enough there are people who vehemently believe the world is flat, and/or that the sun goes around the earth. It would be wrong to dismiss Andy as a fool but it is not clear what his motivation and agenda is. Perhaps he has come from a bad place but shows little sign of embracing the values of his secure adopted homeland.

The verdict into the shooting down of MH17 is expected today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63637625
No doubt Andy will argue that Russia hasn't had a fair say though they won't put forward the accused to face trial. A bit like the Salisbury Cathedral tourists from Moscow I guess.

A few days ago there was a video interview (on YouTube I think) with a Ukrainian pilot explaining the pressure he felt on shooting down missiles that were targeting their cities. Some of this action must be taking place around the Polish/Ukraine border where I expect also surface to air missiles will be launched to try and combat attacks.

My “agenda” in the case of this forum’s review of the Polish tractor tragedy is to take this board’s own ‘technical’ assessment of the supposed “facts” and apply them consistently. If justice ought to be blind (and I agree that it should) then this is how one arrives at fairness: we apply the same standards to ourselves and our friends as we do to others. This concept of fairness goes all the way back to Jesus and probably much further than that.

Members of this forum generally arrived at the conclusion that those who fired the missile(s) into Poland must have been either idiots of an overstretched army or deliberate provocateurs in order for something like this to have happened. Given that it resulted in deaths (or murders), some even demanded those responsible be brought to ‘Justice’. These were conclusions the forum appeared happy to go along with so long as the perpetrators belonged to a certain nationality.

But the moment we learn their nationality is different, a call to apply the same standards evenly is considered ‘warped’ or part of an ‘agenda.’

So yes, I admit it. I do have an ‘agenda’. My agenda is to encourage you lot to develop a set of standards and principles and apply them consistently. Otherwise you’re doing nothing but talking out of your backsides based on your own agendas of “West good, Russia bad.” With that viewpoint, especially when shared by our politicians and media, we will not get a lasting peace. We’re all dead men walking.

Now you want to drag MH17 into this. Ok. I’ll play ball. But let’s be consistent for once, shall we?

I’ll start off by saying I haven’t reviewed the ‘evidence’ in any level of detail to allow me to reach a verdict as to ‘whodunnit.’ The “collective west” claims the Russians and/or their fan boys in Donbas did it. The Russians claim it was the Ukrainians. Each side has their supposed ‘evidence’. Each side claims the other side is lying and fabricating evidence. Both sides have an agenda. Both sides have been shown to be highly capable of lying, both in their press statements, in the media, and in courts of law. Both sides know how to make shït up when it suits their agenda, or suppress evidence when it doesn’t. You’d be a dam fool if you’ve lived in this world as long as you have and never seen it done by all of them.

Of course everyone here knows the Russians did it. Why? Because we’re all the knowledgeable and humanitarian experts that we congratulate each other on being? I doubt it. Instead it comes down to a simple case of ‘Us vs Them.’ And with our own nationalist holier than thou attitudes, we get rope-a-doped down that garden path. Every. Single. Time. And so do the Russians. After all, they’re just as human and subject to the same flaws as we are.

So whodunnit? I don’t really care, to be honest. And I’ll tell you why.

It’s war. People shoot at things all the time. Sometimes they hit nothing, sometimes they hit their enemy. Sometimes they hit their friends or innocent people that they never intended to (guess what Sherlock, that happens to every side in a conflict no matter how righteous they think they are). And sometimes they shoot at someone or something they think is the enemy but it turns out to be a friend or an innocent.

So does that mean I think that war is a free for all where anything can and should happen? No, of course not. In my view it means that intentions matter. Anyone who deliberately shoots at their friends or innocent civilians, *knowing that they are their friends or innocent civilians” ought to be brought to justice. In such cases I see that as murder (or attempted murder). It also means that warring parties ought to take a minimal level of ‘due care’, but given the fear, stress, and the quick paced nature of war, and that it is often fought by our dumbest citizens, I have quite a low standard of what ‘due care’ means. I don’t expect a gunner to solve formulas akin to astrophysics before firing a shot.

No matter ‘whodunnit’ for MH17, I have yet to be convinced that the people doing it said, “oh look, a civilian airliner, let’s shoot it down”. If they did then by all means fry them. But it was very most probably an accident. They thought they were shooting down a military plane and they turned out to be wrong. And I apply that standard no matter whodunnit - Russian, Ukrainian, or Russian-Ukrainians. And I don’t care who supplied the weapons. We supply one side, they supply the other. Awfully ridiculous to cry foul.

I also apply this standard to whoever attacked the Polish tractor. From the so fecking little evidence we have so far, it looks to me like it was most likely an accident. Somebody fecked up and as a result, 2 people very sadly met an early end. But... that’s war. If we wage it or supply and encourage it, then that’s what happens. Show me a war where it didn’t.

However, if someone did say, “hey, let’s fire some missiles into Poland” either in orders or by going rogue with a missile system, well, then Poland will have every right to cry bloody murder and want the perpetrators brought to Justice, no matter where they are from.

To me that’s how you be consistent with principles and standards.

I see no consistency from anyone else. I just see bias and phobia, and people talking out of their backsides while pretending to be experts.

[SwalePie]

.... I just see bias and phobia, and people talking out of their backsides while pretending to be experts.

I think we can probably all agree on this bit, if little else!

[PTID1862]

I think we can probably all agree on this bit, if little else!

Just a tad..

[cher1]

I think we can probably all agree on this bit, if little else!

Isn't that the truth Swlale... I've started multiple responses to some of the stuff posted on this thread, then thought hmm maybe I'll just add to my ignore list. It's a bit like being back in the 6th form common room otherwise, there's always someone who wants to educate you and thinks they're an expert.

[Old_pie]

I see no consistency from anyone else. I just see bias and phobia, and people talking out of their backsides while pretending to be experts.

What do you say to the person who posted:

O/T:- Congrats to Russia

Congratulations to the people of Russia, and especially those of Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson on their referendums and today’s ceremonies to celebrate the occasion. May you know peace from the Ukrainian fascists soon!

...and as for the pipelines, it was obviously the Americans. The only question is who else knew - the Danes? The Poles? Liz “I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I can’t wait to push the button” Truss? But it’s fun to watch the western media try to blame it on Russia. Lol.

Good luck, Europe, you’re well and truly flucked this winter. Thank your good friends in the USA!

What do you say to:

In the 1991 referendum on Ukrainian independence, 83.9% of voters in Donetsk Oblast and 83.6% in Luhansk Oblast supported independence from the Soviet Union. Turnout was 76.7% in Donetsk Oblast and 80.7% in Luhansk Oblast.[41] In October 1991, a congress of South-Eastern deputies from all levels of government took place in Donetsk, where delegates demanded federalisation.[30]

As I understand it this referendum was not held at gunpoint.

I fear that if I allowed myself to be educated by you I would end up a fool.

[andy6025]

What do you say to the person who posted:



What do you say to:

In the 1991 referendum on Ukrainian independence, 83.9% of voters in Donetsk Oblast and 83.6% in Luhansk Oblast supported independence from the Soviet Union. Turnout was 76.7% in Donetsk Oblast and 80.7% in Luhansk Oblast.[41] In October 1991, a congress of South-Eastern deputies from all levels of government took place in Donetsk, where delegates demanded federalisation.[30]

As I understand it this referendum was not held at gunpoint.

I fear that if I allowed myself to be educated by you I would end up a fool.

To the person who posted the ‘congrats’ post I say nothing as I’m not in the habit of talking to myself.

But if you mean to ask what I think of my post - I stand by every word of it. The people of Donetsk and the other oblasts have been attacked and/or suppressed by fascists for over 8 years. Given the crumbling state of the AFU during this time of the war, they were very heavily bolstered by ultranationalist regiments who tattoo themselves with swastikas and other Nazi insignia, goose step and Nazi salute regularly, pay homage to the leader of their historical nationalist extermination programs, and openly declare that they still want to cleans Ukraine of non-pure Ukrainians. Nothing sickens me more than Nazis who, by their very ideology, have no concept of fairness and consistency but who’s ideas are instead purely based on a warped concept of “us” being better than “them”.

The European leadership class has readily gotten into bed with these ideologues for whatever reasons I can only speculate: some of them are probably bought off (corruption), others are ideologues themselves and still have a Russophobic Cold War mentality, and all of them seem to have an inherent need to bend the knee to their American masters. As I said - they see it as a geopolitical game. No doubt they might be between a rock and a hard place, because if they don’t then the Americans (and British?) will blow up the infrastructure that their own friends and allies depend on. As Macron is now realizing: the Americans are indeed “some friend”.

But most of all the European leadership class thought they’d be able support the Nazis and punish Russia without any consequences to themselves. They proudly boast that they’ve levelled on Russia the toughest sanctions ever known and then awaited the collapse of the Russian economy. But that didn’t happen! Now they’re complaining that Russia is “weaponizing energy” or “weaponizing food and fertilizers”because the continent is rapidly de-industrializing, electricity and heating bills are soaring, rolling black-outs are expected, food prices are through the roof and recession is imminent (Jeremy *unt says you’re already in one!). Seriously? In a game of chess you’re supposed to think a number of moves ahead. Well, how many moves ahead was this all planned? What went wrong? As British rail is fond of saying; was it the wrong kind of snow?

Meanwhile the Americans are taking your industry, taking your brainiacs, and giving you back LNG at four times the price. Don’t worry, Jampie says, Europe will just leapfrog gas and coal altogether and go straight to renewables! Just like the Ukrainians, European citizens are being used as pawns and cannon fodder in what the Americans see as a geopolitical game.

As Kissinger said: America has no permanent friends or enemies, only national interests.

Other people have interests too. But as Orban said, so far the Europeans have shot themselves in the lungs.

The best way to get out of this mess, in my view, is to start talking with each other. And approach the talks with respect and equality. Apply standards evenly. Just as Americans and British and Europeans and Ukrainians have ‘interests’, so too do the Russians and those living in the separatist oblasts. Start the dialogue and look for ways to find compromise.

As for your second part, the wiki entry on the ‘91 referendums, I’m fine with them and thus I fail to see the point of your question. People vote all the time. We in the “collective west” tend to declare that we think voting is a good thing - it’s even the’ be all and end all’ of our politics, almost as if it’s divinely ordained... until we don’t like the result! If the people vote for Salvador Allende then never mind that vote and send in the hit squads! You voted for Hezbollah??? Sanctions for you! Catalonian independence? No way! Voted for Trump? Nah, Putin did it! Voted for Biden? Surely it must fraud! Voted in an oblast referendum - it’s a sham! And sanction the observers!

By all means if (as Elon Musk suggests) the votes ought to be held again as part of a peace process, then be my guest. Hell, if they want to have a referendum every 5-10 years to go back and forth at will, you’ll get no objection from me either.

[drillerpie]

I think we can probably all agree on this bit, if little else!

Amen to that.