Matchday Thread: Bolton v Derby

[ramAnag]

its the way you phrase your concerns rA, which indicates its in your head rather than mine, I am after all only reading what you post. I mean nowhere in your hand wringing did you add context to Saturdays defeat, such as the unfortunate injury to Rooney, the reason why Cashin wasn't picked, Wildsmith's red card which I thought was wrong, though admittedly only from what I saw on the TV, but the club appealing seems to support that or the unfortunate deflection which gave them a winning goal.

Yes its frustrating, but am I concerned? No, but then maybe I have a more realistic expectation as to what may be achieved this season, having seen the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland struggle in League 1 without the financial issues Derby have had to contend with.

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

[ramAnag]

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

Sorry, AF...wasn’t only suggesting Swale should answer.

For what it’s worth, like you I hope to be proved wrong...but, on the evidence of the last five plus months I doubt there’s any likelihood at all of us going down but equally, on the evidence of recent performances, there’s little likelihood of us going up either. It’s an odd league...just look at Port Vale...and things may well come right but, as even Swale concedes, if we’re struggling, or still failing to make progress, by December then Mr. Clowes may have a tough decision to make.

In the meantime...maybe a back four of Smith, Nelson, Cashin and Forsyth could be tried...it certainly seems to work better imo.
Think the captaincy needs looking at again too because Hourihane looks anything but inspirational to me.

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry, AF...wasn’t only suggesting Swale should answer.

For what it’s worth, like you I hope to be proved wrong...but, on the evidence of the last five plus months I doubt there’s any likelihood at all of us going down but equally, on the evidence of recent performances, there’s little likelihood of us going up either. It’s an odd league...just look at Port Vale...and things may well come right but, as even Swale concedes, if we’re struggling, or still failing to make progress, by December then Mr. Clowes may have a tough decision to make.

In the meantime...maybe a back four of Smith, Nelson, Cashin and Forsyth could be tried...it certainly seems to work better imo.
Think the captaincy needs looking at again too because Hourihane looks anything but inspirational to me.

I agree and regretably nPW's laissez faire attitude on that has cost him the ability to make a change, he'd be overruling the players he trusted to make the right call in the first place. Problem is there doesn't appear to be ANY leaders

[SithHappens]

Wildsmith red card rescinded.

In other news I'm sure Ian Evatt was happy to win but he has an odd way of celebrating

[swaledale]

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

If after a defeat you immediately post a down beat critique of the game and the team, with no reference to the two key, factors that influenced the result, including questioning the defence, the formation and a comparison with the situation last season thats hand wringing in most people's assessments I'd say.

Its precisely because its a football forum that we are having this debate, your stating the bleeding obvious there rA! Or once you have posted your opinion, do you not expect to get a response and is any response supposed to agree with your sentiments?

Not really sure what the relevance of either the last 5 footballing months has with where we are today. Its a new season, and we have new team members many factors affect games, not least injuries, refs decisions, player form etc. etc.

You may not have suggested outright that Rosenior was better than Warne, but you certainly implied that the evidence suggested we'd have been better off sticking with the former and its a theme that reoccurs, as in comparing where we are now to this time last season.

Smith and Sibley the defence? last time I looked they were midfielders, but I guess I'm focussing on details here, as in Cashin wasn't playing either for reasons which were explained.

So looking at the facts, we had a changed defence due to injuries and the Cashin situation, within 15 mins, Rooney was injured, forcing a change and then Wildsmith was sent off, wrongly I thought at the time (see previous post) which has since been confirmed as Derby have won their appeal against the red card and we lost 1-2 away to one of the leagues stronger sides and the winning goal was an unfortunate deflection.

On that basis your questioning our defensive strength, the formation and Warne's tactics?

Had none of those factors been in play and we had lost 0-2 or worse, I'd see your point, as it is I don't think you have one. For the Bolton game at least Warne has plenty of mitigating factors.

Yes I agree we are more inconsistent since this time last season, but so what? Everything is different, which is why I pointed to Newcastle who having spent millions are having a poor start to their campaign.

The reason I keep mentioning Sunderland and Ipswich is because of how long it took those teams to get out of this division without being subject to EFL financial restrictions. You seem to think Derby should automatically be challenging for promotion and if they aren't its down purely to the manager

[swaledale]

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

Its a football Forum, it isn't me against rA, I'm merely commenting on his posts, everybody has an opinion and able to share it should they wish.

I think your suggesting that the formation should be 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1 rather than Warne's favoured 3-5-2? Though I'd point out that Smith is a midfielder and not a full back.

I seem to remember that last season, Roberts was pilloried by many for his defensive duties, though excellent going forward, Elder fills that gap, but has yet to settle into the side, theres time.

Why Warne would not revert to 4-4-2, or 4-3-2-1 due to pride? I doubt the guy is that daft, but if he has a tactical plan which he has worked on with his defenders then to abandon it on the basis of a few defeats and especially the last game where circumstances combined to rob Derby of at least a pt, would seem strange at this juncture.

On current evidence there is certainly a question mark against Bradley, surprising seen as he played in a team that won the championship play offs last season, but Nelson seems a good recruit to me, I mean he has made the odd mistake, but then who hasn't in the defence so far this season? You say he has recruited so-so defenders yet looking at them they seem to be of a standard needed and its hard to judge when a side is disrupted through injury.

Warne surely picks the team he feels has the best chance of winning? Though again circumstances can and have prevented him from fielding the players he might want to and he has dropped Elder when he hasn't performed so no evidence to date that either consciously or subconsciously he is picking the plyers he has recruited.

Hopefully the weekend off gives him time to work with the players and integrate the new additions, but lets not forget we had 2 good wins prior to the Bolton game and didn't fall apart after the red card that shouldn't have been in that game so whilst we aren't firing on all cylinders yet by any means, talk of a defensive crisis is a little wide of the mark.

Whether Rosenior turns out to be a better manager than Warne is a moot point, managing Hull in the championship without the financial restrictions Derby have in League 1 is a different ball game, apples and pears come to mind. But is irrelevant anyway as he isn't Derby's manager now.

Anyhow it all makes for a debate which after all is the point of a football forum.

[Andy_Faber]

Its a football Forum, it isn't me against rA, I'm merely commenting on his posts, everybody has an opinion and able to share it should they wish.

I think your suggesting that the formation should be 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1 rather than Warne's favoured 3-5-2? Though I'd point out that Smith is a midfielder and not a full back.

I seem to remember that last season, Roberts was pilloried by many for his defensive duties, though excellent going forward, Elder fills that gap, but has yet to settle into the side, theres time.

Why Warne would not revert to 4-4-2, or 4-3-2-1 due to pride? I doubt the guy is that daft, but if he has a tactical plan which he has worked on with his defenders then to abandon it on the basis of a few defeats and especially the last game where circumstances combined to rob Derby of at least a pt, would seem strange at this juncture.

On current evidence there is certainly a question mark against Bradley, surprising seen as he played in a team that won the championship play offs last season, but Nelson seems a good recruit to me, I mean he has made the odd mistake, but then who hasn't in the defence so far this season? You say he has recruited so-so defenders yet looking at them they seem to be of a standard needed and its hard to judge when a side is disrupted through injury.

Warne surely picks the team he feels has the best chance of winning? Though again circumstances can and have prevented him from fielding the players he might want to and he has dropped Elder when he hasn't performed so no evidence to date that either consciously or subconsciously he is picking the plyers he has recruited.

Hopefully the weekend off gives him time to work with the players and integrate the new additions, but lets not forget we had 2 good wins prior to the Bolton game and didn't fall apart after the red card that shouldn't have been in that game so whilst we aren't firing on all cylinders yet by any means, talk of a defensive crisis is a little wide of the mark.

Whether Rosenior turns out to be a better manager than Warne is a moot point, managing Hull in the championship without the financial restrictions Derby have in League 1 is a different ball game, apples and pears come to mind. But is irrelevant anyway as he isn't Derby's manager now.

Anyhow it all makes for a debate which after all is the point of a football forum.

yes its all just debating points

I take your point that Smith is a midfielder by reputation but I'll add three things - he wasn't for most of last year and made a pretty good (not outstanding) job of it, he at this stage of his career to be a better fullback than midfielder, and a change of role is not out of the question for footballers, I'll cite our hero Dave Mackay and our adversary's hero, Kenny Burns, changed from 'the poor man's Bob Latchford' to a regretably Euro Cup winning centre half.

Roberts had his bad moments yes, I still think he was way better than anything we have to replace him (even the dependable Forsyth)

Maybe pride is the wrong word on Warne's formation, dogma may be more appropriate

I'd question the '2 good wins' thing, I was at the Fleetwood game and watched the vid of the Burton game and it felt a bit hit and hope to me.

I hope I'm wrong on all counts, and as I've said, 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' will do for now

[ramAnag]

yes its all just debating points

I take your point that Smith is a midfielder by reputation but I'll add three things - he wasn't for most of last year and made a pretty good (not outstanding) job of it, he at this stage of his career to be a better fullback than midfielder, and a change of role is not out of the question for footballers, I'll cite our hero Dave Mackay and our adversary's hero, Kenny Burns, changed from 'the poor man's Bob Latchford' to a regretably Euro Cup winning centre half.

Roberts had his bad moments yes, I still think he was way better than anything we have to replace him (even the dependable Forsyth)

Maybe pride is the wrong word on Warne's formation, dogma may be more appropriate

I'd question the '2 good wins' thing, I was at the Fleetwood game and watched the vid of the Burton game and it felt a bit hit and hope to me.

I hope I'm wrong on all counts, and as I've said, 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' will do for now

I can only agree with every word of that.

Swale, if after all this time you only ‘think’ AF and I are questioning the effectiveness of the three at the back strategy and you genuinely don’t understand the relevance of our performances since late January then there’s honestly little point in ‘debating’ further.

I have no interest in any juvenile point scoring argument...it just bores everyone. We both hope for the same thing. Let’s hope we get there without the need for further upheaval. Personally I am less optimistic than I was but in Mr. Clowes I still trust.

[MadAmster]

Players changing position (Smith). RB may well be his long term role. I then take a look at a player who started out life as a left winger, was changed to left Mid, then left WB, then LB and now, it seems, a capable CH at this level. Following Rooney's, now confirmed ACL problem, RB could be the way forward for Smith