O/T When did the right wingers....

[great_fire]

Manufacturing is declining everywhere in the West, even Germany is becoming more of a service economy, we simply can't compete with countries like China where costs are so much lower.

[Brin]

With respect, you were not in unison with your fellow mineworkers. You were in unison with those who agreed with you upon whether there should be a strike. You don't know if you were in unison with the majority of your fellow mineworkers, because the NUM leadership denied them the secret ballot that the unions constitution guaranteed them. They denied them a ballot because they were scared that they might not get the result that they wanted, which was a confrontation with the government.

Rather than receiving the benefit of any form of ‘unison’ your fellow mineworker’s who did not share your view upon whether there should be strike faced intimidation both at their places of work and at their homes and elsewhere. Some may feel that was justified or acceptable, whereas I don’t. The leadership of a union should act upon the wishes of the whole membership, not just those members who agree with them.

Yes, Thatcher wanted the confrontation and prepared for it. The reason for that is that the unions had acted recklessly and unreasonably throughout the 60s and 70s and had caused immeasurable damage to the UK economy and the government was determined to end that. The NUM leadership knew that very well and were also playing a political game. Mining communities paid a huge price for it.

The days of coal are over, Brin: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...017-uk-figures

Kerr don't believe all you read. There have been hundreds of applications to site powered wind farms that have been turned down by planning associations so, to say this is the way forward it doesn't always mean they will get over the finish line.

I do like the point though that back's up my point on being held to ransom by other countries.

'However, if we continue to use gas at the rate that we do, then Britain will miss carbon targets and be dangerously exposed to supply and price risks in the international gas markets'

Don't say we haven't been warned!

By the way do you like my thread on 'instrumentals' ? Sure you have one in your locker somewhere....look forward to hearing it.

[rolymiller]

Your a pedantic owd sod Kerr but I suppose it goes with the nature of your job

Yet your pendantry seems often biased eg surely a balanced reply would have been "it doesnt say people were offered untold wealth but then again it doesn't say they weren't". It is often what you don't say that shows the bias and also when you are defending others. JUst an observation...

[WanChaiMiller]

Events under the time of the Heath government certainly didn’t help the UK economy, but I’m not sure that they can be attributed to that government to any significant degree. The two major events were the 1973/74 oil crisis, which caused a shock to the world economy, rather than specifically to the UK and the industrial action by the NUM that started in 1973 and which led to the imposition of a three day week. That industrial action was a direct consequence of the Heath government seeking to curb inflation by bearing down on wage increases. Unfortunately, Heath didn’t have the will power that Thatcher did and had not prepared the ground for the conflict. The rest is history; Labour took power in 1974 and immediately gave the miners the 35% they were demanding only to repeat the exercise a year later.

How could anyone forget the three day week – the consequences of unfettered union power set in stark relief?

The 1973- 75 recession affected the whole world, but it was only the UK that needed what was the biggest ever bail out from the IMF. That is, in my opinion, attributable to the unwillingness or inability of the Wilson government to curb the actions of its union paymasters and, in consequence, to control wage rises such as to bring inflation under control and to control public spending. We were not known as the sick man of Europe without reason.

Totally agree causes of inflation and the recession. But you wiped that out of history in your epic.

I totally agree the cause of that recession cannot be blamed on a single government but, then, the consequess cannot be attributed to the next government.

I do not agree that our need for an IMF loan was down to Wilsons inability to control union wage demands. The major cause was the recession and our underlaying economic ability to withstand its impact. Other countries may have had more in reserve.

[WanChaiMiller]

I'm not sure where you are going with that clip. It doesn't say at any point that people were offered untold wealth. The quote that you rely upon confirms that part of the purpose was to enfranchise people and the growth in share ownership confirms that was partially achieved.

Depends on where you want to take it.

I read it that if you get on board you can share in the wealth of the City. And this is open to the whole population. Which takes us back to my original point.

[WanChaiMiller]

So encouraging people to have additional pension provision over and above that provided by the state was a bad thing? I am going to struggle to agree with you on that one. I would suspect that most people would.

What were people to do? Shrug their shoulders and accept the lot of the state pension?

If advisers improperly encouraged people to switch out of company schemes than that cannot be attributable to Thatcher. Such an argument would be analogues to saying that shops shouldn’t sell paracetamol because some people would overdose on them. The fault isn’t in the availability, which must, on any rational argument, be a good thing. It is in the manner they were then used by some.

It is not the point Im making on pensions.

I said the culture that exited in the 80s as Thatcher sold the financial dream led people to believe they could be wealthy beyond their dreams. Im saying the reality has turned out different and is the basis for such open discontent (the opening post is why right wingers whinge so much - I think this is the reason - they are finding theyve been sold down the river).

I lived in London and South East from mid 70s to late 80s. People down there bought into it.

[mellowmiller]

Football anyone? Just askin'

[KerrAvon]

Football anyone? Just askin'

If you want to do one of your 'woe is me - this club is so badly run - there is no plan' posts, I'll happily answer it.

[rolymiller]

Ok thanks for your reply Kerr and I am pleased that you at least recognise workers need representation in disputes with management ar times.I have obviously missed your posts on your union representation.They are the positives that I personally get out of your reply.
As Brin as said though would it be fair to say you have a grudge against the miners? Did you not have any sympathy for their cause and the dangerous and arduous work they do/did?

[KerrAvon]

Ok thanks for your reply Kerr and I am pleased that you at least recognise workers need representation in disputes with management ar times.I have obviously missed your posts on your union representation.They are the positives that I personally get out of your reply.
As Brin as said though would it be fair to say you have a grudge against the miners? Did you not have any sympathy for their cause and the dangerous and arduous work they do/did?

Of course I recognise that workers need representation in disputes and in wage negotiations etc. As I said to Brin, however, the leadership of a union should act upon the wishes of the whole membership, not just those members who agree with them. In addition, a union should respect its own constitution - that is, after all, the basis upon which they take subscriptions from their members. Do you agree that something has gone wrong when union members have to take their union to court to enforce their rights? Who is there to represent their interests when that happens?

I don't have any grudge for miners and have huge respect for them given the dangerous and unpleasant job that they do. I think the destruction of mining communities and the hardships that flowed from it were and, to an extent, are, a tragedy, but every industry has it day and times move on. Perhaps if the NUM had had a different leadership and been willing to work with the government, the industry might had received a softer landing. Who knows?