O/T:- Lewis Hamilton

[upthemaggies]

Whoa, steady on Tiger. I haven’t changed my position on this subject at all, and I’ve no idea why you think I have. Obviously crime is closely linked with poverty. That’s basic stuff. To be fair, I don’t even remember poverty being mentioned in our previous exchanges, but it’s a key reason why proportionately more black people are involved in crime.

As for Hamilton, very rich people do tend to live in places where they’ll reduce their tax bill, and F1 is no exception, though the extent of the wealth of those drivers is pretty exceptional. Does that preclude him from making political statements, and engaging in symbolism or activism ? Of course not, unless you subscribe to the view that Gary Lineker can’t have sympathy with refugees unless he puts one up, or that I can’t express a view about a poverty amongst black people unless I’ve given money to a black person. I’m sure you’re too clued up to agree with all that nonsense?

Do you think the animosity both on this board and elsewhere toward Hamilton is solely down to his perceived arrogance and tax avoidance, or do you think there might be an element of something else?

Basic rule that cuts across gender/race/***uality is that if you have strong opinions and nothing much else to offer in the personality department, you're going to rub people up the wrong way. I had the strong impression he was not liked long before BLM, I distinctly remember Georgie Bingham saying she'd lost all respect for him about a year ago.

[drillerpie]

Whoa, steady on Tiger. I haven’t changed my position on this subject at all, and I’ve no idea why you think I have. Obviously crime is closely linked with poverty. That’s basic stuff. To be fair, I don’t even remember poverty being mentioned in our previous exchanges, but it’s a key reason why proportionately more black people are involved in crime.

As for Hamilton, very rich people do tend to live in places where they’ll reduce their tax bill, and F1 is no exception, though the extent of the wealth of those drivers is pretty exceptional. Does that preclude him from making political statements, and engaging in symbolism or activism ? Of course not, unless you subscribe to the view that Gary Lineker can’t have sympathy with refugees unless he puts one up, or that I can’t express a view about a poverty amongst black people unless I’ve given money to a black person. I’m sure you’re too clued up to agree with all that nonsense?

Do you think the animosity both on this board and elsewhere toward Hamilton is solely down to his perceived arrogance and tax avoidance, or do you think there might be an element of something else?

I agree it's basic stuff, but I seem to remember getting some push back at the time when I wrote that the data suggested that events like George Floyd's death were not necessarily the racially inspired executions they were portrayed to be, and that in relation to number of interactions with police, black people were no more likely to be killed by police than white people.

I also remember getting push back when suggesting that investing in all deprived areas would help black people but also underprivileged white people, while at the same time creating a less divided society.

I can't remember if it was you who was pushing back (I'll check later) but anyway it seems you agree with those premises at this point in time (happy to stand corrected if wrong).

I think the fact that BLM has got a revolutionary left winger like your good self defending the right of multi millionaires to not pay any tax is a sign of how effective they are. To me, opting to live in a tax haven does impact on a person's authority (but not their right, obviously) to talk about social issues and underprivileged sections of society who depend largely on taxpayer funded schemes to improve their lot.

Ironically I've seen the objection to white people expressing concern for black people without giving money to the cause expressed more by BLM activists than I have on here.

I don't know why people on here dislike Hamilton. Some Notts County fans are almost certainly, by the law of averages, racists. According to your input yesterday 40% of the UK population and 22% of Labour voters are 'massive racists', so that would easily explain that.

[BigFatPie]

I agree it's basic stuff, but I seem to remember getting some push back at the time when I wrote that the data suggested that events like George Floyd's death were not necessarily the racially inspired executions they were portrayed to be, and that in relation to number of interactions with police, black people were no more likely to be killed by police than white people.

I also remember getting push back when suggesting that investing in all deprived areas would help black people but also underprivileged white people, while at the same time creating a less divided society.

I can't remember if it was you who was pushing back (I'll check later) but anyway it seems you agree with those premises at this point in time (happy to stand corrected if wrong).

I think the fact that BLM has got a revolutionary left winger like your good self defending the right of multi millionaires to not pay any tax is a sign of how effective they are. To me, opting to live in a tax haven does impact on a person's authority (but not their right, obviously) to talk about social issues and underprivileged sections of society who depend largely on taxpayer funded schemes to improve their lot.

Ironically I've seen the objection to white people expressing concern for black people without giving money to the cause expressed more by BLM activists than I have on here.

I don't know why people on here dislike Hamilton. Some Notts County fans are almost certainly, by the law of averages, racists. According to your input yesterday 40% of the UK population and 22% of Labour voters are 'massive racists', so that would easily explain that.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-white-people/


Black people suffer more poverty AND they suffer disproportionate discrimination by the police. A black person is far more likely to be killed by the police in the US than a white person. Further down the linked article it suggests that this injustice may be partly explained by the fact that black people have more interactions with the police, but it also suggests the reasons for many of those interactions are discriminatory. The evidence is mixed.

I am in no way am defending the right of anyone to pay less/no tax, I was describing things as they are. It would be much better if Hamilton and others paid their tax in the UK, but it doesn’t disqualify them from activism/symbolism if they don’t and I think Hamilton gets more criticism for this than if he were white. I haven’t seen it on here but elsewhere I’ve seen it said that he’s a disgrace for not paying his tax but Trump is a financial genius!

[drillerpie]

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-white-people/


The evidence is mixed.

Well this is definitely progress. I remember in our last conversation you quite mockingly put the word data in inverted commas when referring to the statistics I wanted you to digest. So now we are having an evidence based discussion. Cool.

So we can see there are different outcomes for different ethnicities, and obviously activists love to assign any differences to racism/***ism/transphobia etc. Nobody ever calls them out on it, so frankly who can blame them.

Can you think of any other factors that might influence these different outcomes?

The disparity seems quite high in Chicago. Can you think of anything happening in Chicago that might partially or wholly explain that? Or are you going to fall into the 'correlation must mean causation' fallacy?

[BigFatPie]

Well this is definitely progress. I remember in our last conversation you quite mockingly put the word data in inverted commas when referring to the statistics I wanted you to digest. So now we are having an evidence based discussion. Cool.

So we can see there are different outcomes for different ethnicities, and obviously activists love to assign any differences to racism/***ism/transphobia etc. Nobody ever calls them out on it, so frankly who can blame them.

Can you think of any other factors that might influence these different outcomes?

The disparity seems quite high in Chicago. Can you think of anything happening in Chicago that might partially or wholly explain that? Or are you going to fall into the 'correlation must mean causation' fallacy?

The way you word your posts sometimes reminds me with horror of my GCSEs. And isn’t the phrase ‘correlation doesn’t always equal causation’?

I’ve no idea what could be happening in Chicago to explain the disparity. Please explain.

On a more general point, I think you may be guilty of the ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ fallacy, in which what you see are the faults with anti-racism campaigns lead you to think that there’s not much racism or that it shouldn’t be combatted at all. I’m currently reading ‘Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race’. It’s very enlightening.

[drillerpie]

The way you word your posts sometimes reminds me with horror of my GCSEs. And isn’t the phrase ‘correlation doesn’t always equal causation’?

I’ve no idea what could be happening in Chicago to explain the disparity. Please explain.

On a more general point, I think you may be guilty of the ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ fallacy, in which what you see are the faults with anti-racism campaigns lead you to think that there’s not much racism or that it shouldn’t be combatted at all. I’m currently reading ‘Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race’. It’s very enlightening.

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

[drillerpie]

Oh yes, Chicago - I'll presume you're just playing dumb on that one.

[upthemaggies]

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

Are there any stats regards African immigrants to the US in the last 20 years or so? I've heard a few people on podcasts suggest that they are doing very well for themselves.

[drillerpie]

Are there any stats regards African immigrants to the US in the last 20 years or so? I've heard a few people on podcasts suggest that they are doing very well for themselves.

I've seen Nigerian immigrants cited as an example of this quite a lot. I'm not sure which stats would be useful here, maybe educational attainment, employment rates, average salary, crime rates etc?

[upthemaggies]

^Collectively they might suggest that the system isn't working for a specific community, rather than black people per se.
If it is true that the first generation of slaves were all separated from one another, so that they couldn't communicate and as a consequence of that, are a cultural void other than their recent (in historical terms) and almost exclusively negative American experience. And if it is also true that this demographic has difficulty in reconnecting with its' African roots out of resentment at being, to put it in euphemistic terms, rejected by its' mother continent - Then the re-enforcement of the idea that they are victims of oppression and continue to be so would surely be the worst thing you could do. So appallingly stupid in fact, that you could only conclude that there was an ulterior motive.