O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[Chicken Balti Pie]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

You miss out all the other bits though. Unsocial hours pay that bumps you up, pretty much guaranteed annual wage rises based on length of service rather than performance, and that is within the bands, you don't even need to move up a band for that increase. Beneficial overtime rates.

Back in the real world, I work in a job that is equally important and keeps the health care "industry" ticking. I will be lucky to get a pay rise this year and if I get one, it will be way below inflation and that will be because in my performance review I am over achieving. I don't get overtime, I'm salaried so any extra time I work is effectively free and my personal performance is actively monitored. I'd love all public sector workers to have these conditions on them, it would certainly drive up efficiency, maybe it's time for the government to implement that?

[Rez1862]

You miss out all the other bits though. Unsocial hours pay that bumps you up, pretty much guaranteed annual wage rises based on length of service rather than performance, and that is within the bands, you don't even need to move up a band for that increase. Beneficial overtime rates.

Back in the real world, I work in a job that is equally important and keeps the health care "industry" ticking. I will be lucky to get a pay rise this year and if I get one, it will be way below inflation and that will be because in my performance review I am over achieving. I don't get overtime, I'm salaried so any extra time I work is effectively free and my personal performance is actively monitored. I'd love all public sector workers to have these conditions on them, it would certainly drive up efficiency, maybe it's time for the government to implement that?

So you're saying that people shouldn't be compensated for working nights given the well known adverse effects on health? Or working Christmas and New Years eve?

The second paragraph is a patronising read - it almost sounds as though you are saying that because you aren't getting anything, no-one should be asking for anything more.

[TheBlackHorse]

... it never surprises me that some choose to interpret what is said in their own 'picky' way - yes, I've stood off from commenting too. OK ... for 'nurses' read front line 'hands on' staff - physio's, et al. Yes, a porters job is *****, but earnings of support staff should reflect their capabilities to deliver. It all needs rebalancing. Hell Chicken, public sector becoming efficient - LOL - it's not in their DNA or interests. Lions led by Donkeys, as ever ...

[TheBlackHorse]

... try vit al ...

[Rez1862]

Thanks for this post and for sharing some first-hand experiences.

I think it's hard for many people, including myself, to understand the issues that NHS staff have and how low morale is. But lots of people are struggling. Real-term pay cuts aren't limited to NHS staff. Real earnings are down nationwide on average 3% in the last quarter alone. Everyone is feeling the pinch.

Most of us operate in industries where if you were to demand more money by not working, you'd simply get fired. And rightly so. So if negotiations with your manager fail, you either accept it or move on to a more lucrative role. Also, many of us work in industries that are increasingly precarious with the onset of automation and AI. It's up to us to figure out what we'll do when the work disappears.

What I'm trying to say is, these are difficult times for all sorts of reasons. Most of us are suffering as well but don't have a way to 'campaign for fairer pay' other than to jump into opportunities that pay more, retrain, or, if we are self-employed, work more.

Thanks Slack, and nicely put. My intention wasn't to start any further arguments as I appreciate this is a very emotive subject for a lot of people. I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care. Not having to worry about deciding whether to go for a piss and have something to eat vs looking after sick people and ensuring they get treatment, speaking to worried relatives about their families or staying late to make sure all the work has been done as there aren't enough staff to do so when you've gone.

Please don't be drawn in by the Tory gaslighting.

[slack_pie]

Thanks Slack, and nicely put. My intention wasn't to start any further arguments as I appreciate this is a very emotive subject for a lot of people. I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care. Not having to worry about deciding whether to go for a piss and have something to eat vs looking after sick people and ensuring they get treatment, speaking to worried relatives about their families or staying late to make sure all the work has been done as there aren't enough staff to do so when you've gone.

Please don't be drawn in by the Tory gaslighting.

I don't think nurses are greedy at all. My point was lots of people feel they should be paid more, particularly given the increased cost of living, but don't have a mechanism in place to demand it.

For what it's worth, I think it's ridiculous how much nurses and teachers get paid, given how important their jobs are. But given that their wages come from tax revenue, and countries must at least attempt to balance the books rather than run up a massive deficit or cause inflation by devaluing the currency, I'm not sure what the answer is to that problem.

Perhaps if governments were less bloated, wasteful, incompetent, and corrupt, there would be more money to pay public-sector workers a fairer wage. But I don't see that changing, regardless of which party is in power.

[Mapperleypie]

Firstly I completely agree with many of the striking workers. They are being royally shafted along with many of us in this country. To use the argument that many of us deserve a pay increase but disagreeing with those fighting for one for themselves is fuzzy logic at best.

Inflation as it stands is being driven by the lack of labour supply in this country coupled with a seriously depreciated £. Whether folks like to admit it or not Brexit has contributed heavily to both. If we want to attract the best people in this country (and those overseas to come to this country) into essential work we simply need to pay more. If the aim is for a high-wage highly skilled economy then we need a serious amount of wage inflation across the board to achieve this.

As things stand we have many large companies making record profits off the inflation we are all experiencing and a scant amount of this is being passed down to the average Joe making the standard of living in this country much worse for nearly everyone other than the top few percent. Nobody should be an apologist for this state of affairs. It stinks.

[Elite_Pie]

I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care.

That's it exactly. All this Daily Mail stuff about nurses saying they use food banks and they could earn more in a supermarket is just diversion. It takes attention away from the real issue - that we have an NHS where both the organisation and it's staff are at breaking point. As sid pointed out, Sunak and his party (and the opposition too) are in a position where waiting lists and substandard care will never be a problem to them. They are however a problem to millions, and as the graph posted by OchPie shows it's a problem of this government's making.

[Chicken Balti Pie]

So you're saying that people shouldn't be compensated for working nights given the well known adverse effects on health? Or working Christmas and New Years eve?

The second paragraph is a patronising read - it almost sounds as though you are saying that because you aren't getting anything, no-one should be asking for anything more.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's disingenuous to say that the base pay hourly rate is all they get when they will work plenty of nights unless you're a practice nurse or along those lines. If you're shift working, you're not on "base pay" as you're trying to allude to.

And as I've seen massive inefficiency within the NHS (not just management, from nurses and doctors as well!) I'd like to see pay be based on performance rather than you're just an employee. Might retain the better staff and give a kick up the backside to the lower performers, can't ask for that if you're in a union though can you!

[Rez1862]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's disingenuous to say that the base pay hourly rate is all they get when they will work plenty of nights unless you're a practice nurse or along those lines. If you're shift working, you're not on "base pay" as you're trying to allude to.

And as I've seen massive inefficiency within the NHS (not just management, from nurses and doctors as well!) I'd like to see pay be based on performance rather than you're just an employee. Might retain the better staff and give a kick up the backside to the lower performers, can't ask for that if you're in a union though can you!

But base pay is how much the government or the "independent" pay body feel that a band 5 nurse (or ODP, physio etc) should earn. The unsocial hours are compensation for working unsocial hours. Would you work at 7pm-7am for the same pay as you earned in the day?

I don't disagree re pay increments based on performance - but how do you measure the performance of a medic or a nurse?