O/F'ing/T Carillion

[millmoormagic]

The NCB was a bottomless pit (no pun intended) down which to throw taxpayer's money.

Whatever your personal motivation, you and others opposed the will of a democratically elected government and ignored the rights of NUM members to have their say in a national ballot before seeking to demand that those subsidies for uneconomic pits continue. Irrespective of whether the NCB was publically or privately owned, I have to agree with galant that it is hard to square your views on the coal industry with those on Carillion, where your position on this thread appears to be that Carillion employees can get stuffed.

Once again you're being very, very disingenuous, something you're very good at.

Yes, the miner's opposed the will of the gov't, and you know what, regardless of what you think, i'd do the exact same thing again right now in the same circumstances, and i don't think i'd be on my own either. No one ignored the rights of anyone, ballots were held in Yorkshire, and nationally among the NUM delegates, maybe a national members ballot should've been held, but i know this, you don't cross the line, ever, history actually proves every word that came out of Arthur Scargill's mouth back then was the truth, indeed, he rather under played the damage the tories actually had in mind.
Rather than concentrating on the uneconomic pits (though you wouldn't know that coal mines could be economic one year and uneconomic the next, due to geological issues) the tories absolutely decimated the coal industry regardless of the profits they made. My own pit, Silverwood, broke all records, made profit year on year, and was shut in 1994, and there's countless others just the same.

That democratically elected gov't you talk about deliberately created the conditions to take the NUM on, they threw the gauntlet down, and we picked it up, put one hell of a fight up, even if i say so myself, despite the huge odds and the whole state machine against us.

To say that animal's position is that the employees can get stuffed is quite frankly ridiculous and you know it, once again using your profession of cleverly manipulating words to try and favour your argument.

[KerrAvon]

Once again you're being very, very disingenuous, something you're very good at.

Yes, the miner's opposed the will of the gov't, and you know what, regardless of what you think, i'd do the exact same thing again right now in the same circumstances, and i don't think i'd be on my own either. No one ignored the rights of anyone, ballots were held in Yorkshire, and nationally among the NUM delegates, maybe a national members ballot should've been held, but i know this, you don't cross the line, ever, history actually proves every word that came out of Arthur Scargill's mouth back then was the truth, indeed, he rather under played the damage the tories actually had in mind.
Rather than concentrating on the uneconomic pits (though you wouldn't know that coal mines could be economic one year and uneconomic the next, due to geological issues) the tories absolutely decimated the coal industry regardless of the profits they made. My own pit, Silverwood, broke all records, made profit year on year, and was shut in 1994, and there's countless others just the same.

That democratically elected gov't you talk about deliberately created the conditions to take the NUM on, they threw the gauntlet down, and we picked it up, put one hell of a fight up, even if i say so myself, despite the huge odds and the whole state machine against us.

To say that animal's position is that the employees can get stuffed is quite frankly ridiculous and you know it, once again using your profession of cleverly manipulating words to try and favour your argument.

I’m not being disingenuous, I’m expressing views that you don’t like, which is different. When union members have to take their own union to court to make it act in accordance with its constitution and to stop misapplying its funds, there is something badly wrong. Surely you can agree with that?

animal immediately dismissed any sort of government support for Carrillion, despite having struck to retain such support for the coal mining industry. If that isn’t a ‘get stuffed’ to Carillion employees and more than a tad hypocritical, I don’t know what is.

For what it’s worth, I think animal called it correctly on Carillion (any substantial support would probably have been illegal under EU law, in any event), but feel that the romanticised version of the miners strike that he and you advance bears little resemblance to reality.

[ragingpup]

Of course there is regulation within economies run upon Capitalist principles. Do you believe that the Carillion collapse could have been averted by more regulation though? If so, what would the nature of that regulation be?

To be honest Kerr if you read my original post I was trying to get straight GM's argument in my head, not dismissing it in the least. Trying to get clarification from him on what his point was. Unfortunately, he just responded by abusing me for being thick!

Not that I'm saying I'm not thick but I'm glad that you agree with me that there is regulation within capitalist economies. It means we're both thick together! Cheers GM.

As for whether I think the Carillon collapse could have been averted through more regulation, I've honestly no idea. That part of the discussion wasn't on my mind when I was politely asking GM to clarify his intriguing point and have been so busy this week I'm not up with the news... Sorry!

[KerrAvon]

To be honest Kerr if you read my original post I was trying to get straight GM's argument in my head, not dismissing it in the least. Trying to get clarification from him on what his point was. Unfortunately, he just responded by abusing me for being thick!

Not that I'm saying I'm not thick but I'm glad that you agree with me that there is regulation within capitalist economies. It means we're both thick together! Cheers GM.

As for whether I think the Carillon collapse could have been averted through more regulation, I've honestly no idea. That part of the discussion wasn't on my mind when I was politely asking GM to clarify his intriguing point and have been so busy this week I'm not up with the news... Sorry!

gm was wrong, in my opinion, but I think your exchange with him demonstrated the limitations of using Left and Right labels. The defining features of Capitalism and Socialism are primarily concerned with the ownership of the means of production. Hitler was big on public spending and regulation, but I think most Labour supporters wouldn't regard him as one of theirs (although some seem to hold anti-Semitic views).

[ragingpup]

gm was wrong, in my opinion, but I think your exchange with him demonstrated the limitations of using Left and Right labels. The defining features of Capitalism and Socialism are primarily concerned with the ownership of the means of production. Hitler was big on public spending and regulation, but I think most Labour supporters wouldn't regard him as one of theirs (although some seem to hold anti-Semitic views).

I would agree that the use of such labels can be limited, and even, as in the case of Hitler, consciously abused to manipulate a society. Of course, in the real world, extremes on both sides can involve quite radical strands from the other. However, I would argue that they are simply useful words - 'left' and 'right' that allow us to simply communicate roughly where we stand, as a starting point at least.

[gm_gm]

To be honest Kerr if you read my original post I was trying to get straight GM's argument in my head, not dismissing it in the least. Trying to get clarification from him on what his point was. Unfortunately, he just responded by abusing me for being thick!

Not that I'm saying I'm not thick but I'm glad that you agree with me that there is regulation within capitalist economies. It means we're both thick together! Cheers GM.

As for whether I think the Carillon collapse could have been averted through more regulation, I've honestly no idea. That part of the discussion wasn't on my mind when I was politely asking GM to clarify his intriguing point and have been so busy this week I'm not up with the news... Sorry!

RP cant remember typing "youre thick" I think you are overacting on this one. I didnt have you down as a snowflake but I'll be careful in future know I know you are vulnerable

[kempo]

I am reasonably fond of capitalism but events like this certainly give it a bad name.

This company was drowning in debt,had zero earnings visibility and a big pension fund deficit.

It certainly seems reckless at the very least for the CEO who stepped down last year and continues on his near 700k annual salary until August of this year,to increase dividend payments while debt was increasing together with a pension fund deficit.

Practicing capitalism in a reckless fashion does not condemn capitalism for all time...in my view.

[animallittle3]

I am reasonably fond of capitalism but events like this certainly give it a bad name.

This company was drowning in debt,had zero earnings visibility and a big pension fund deficit.

It certainly seems reckless at the very least for the CEO who stepped down last year and continues on his near 700k annual salary until August of this year,to increase dividend payments while debt was increasing together with a pension fund deficit.

Practicing capitalism in a reckless fashion does not condemn capitalism for all time...in my view.

The problem stretches way beyond just Carillion Kempo .

The CEO of Carillion probably didn't even think he was doing anything wrong because he doesn't understand anything outside of his inner circle .

The same with the Mike Ashley , Richard Branson or Philip Green and thousands of other UK bosses .

They operate in a world where everything is stacked in their favour , most haven't operated in any other environment .

To exploit , to be greedy and to attempt to ditch the losses on the taxpayer or steal pension funds is a totally natural thing to do .

Human Beings are not born greedy , exploitive or simply crooks , capitalism brings it out of them and the rules exist for it's continuation .

If I could walk into a bank and come out with £4m of someone elses money and be protected by the government and system then who wouldn't be tempted ? .

Difference is , there are laws that prevent the likes of myself from doing just that , so I don't .

[KerrAvon]

The problem stretches way beyond just Carillion Kempo .

The CEO of Carillion probably didn't even think he was doing anything wrong because he doesn't understand anything outside of his inner circle .

The same with the Mike Ashley , Richard Branson or Philip Green and thousands of other UK bosses .

They operate in a world where everything is stacked in their favour , most haven't operated in any other environment .

To exploit , to be greedy and to attempt to ditch the losses on the taxpayer or steal pension funds is a totally natural thing to do .

Human Beings are not born greedy , exploitive or simply crooks , capitalism brings it out of them and the rules exist for it's continuation .

If I could walk into a bank and come out with £4m of someone elses money and be protected by the government and system then who wouldn't be tempted ? .

Difference is , there are laws that prevent the likes of myself from doing just that , so I don't .

Who has stolen from pension funds? I’m sure it happens, but the only person who springs to mind is Robert Maxwell – Labour MP 1964 to 1970 and cheerleader for Labour at the Mirror group.

[animallittle3]

The link between Philip Green and The Tory Party , he was an advisor to Cameron seems to be significant .

Profit warnings and a spectacular fall in it's share price clearly didn't send the alarms to go off when awarding billion pound contracts .

All part of the neoliberal club of course , I understand the CEO of Carillion will continue to be paid for the next 10 months , nice work when you can get it , the neoliberal way of course as Carillion workers sign on the dole .

I'm hopeful that the lessons of the financial crisis will be learned here and perhaps we shall see the CEO and his cronies facing a courtroom appearance , I believe it's called fraud and there's many a benefit claimant who regretted their fraudulent use of public money .

We do operate in a one tier society after all , don't we !!!!