O/T Its surprising how people vote

[SBRed48]

According to BMA there is no set scale for GP and it is up to the individual practice to decide (they operate as private entities), however typical salaries are between £56 -£86k

A wor only gooin on what wo said in Parliament after the new contracts were introduced that most GP's were on close to £100 K when all income is taken into account.

[animallittle3]

I feel you should.

The NHS Trusts concerned want to reduce their costs - presumably with the intention of being able to spend more actually treating poorly patiens. They could look to do that by outsourcing the work, but have chosen to do so by moving the work into subsidiaries that are wholly owned by the Trust. How is that privatisation?

And what is wrong with private companies delivering services for the NHS if that cuts costs? Are your objections purely ideological, perchance?

What they are doing is to force workers out of the NHS to a subsidiary .

Now the transferred staff will take their current NHS rights with them and have them guaranteed , no problem .

But wait ........

Staff leave or retire , replacement staff coming in will most likely be offered lesser terms and most likely no bargaining tools .

This undermines the workforce and if you play the game long enough totally divides the service staff .

If you have the floor to yourself with little or no resistance to pay and bargaining power you make it more attractive to potential private investors .

This is back door privatisation , nothing more and nothing less .

That's my view as you have yours .

End .

[KerrAvon]

Well aren't you lucky that you could afford £1400 to jump the queue
Don't you find it odd that apparently the same consultant could not fit you in,but wave £1400 & hey presto
I don't blame you for going down that route as I would have done the same but it doesn't make it right
Had the consultant been wholly private that would have been a different case
The point is in my opinion that whilst most of us would have done the same it shouldn't be possible to do so
Just remember that whilst jumping the queue you actually moved someone else back one place & next time someone with more money than you will return the compliment so to speak
It really is Toryism personified
What if the "fee" had been £14000,then what?

There is no jumping of the queue because there are two different queues.

I fancied a coffee on my way to work thus morning and had the choice of two coffee shops. Had I been in a hurry, it is possible that I would have chosen the shop with the shorter queue. If I had done so, the only effect on the queue in the other shop would have been to stop it growing. It is the same for the NHS – that some people choose the private route keeps NHS waiting lists shorter – it certainly doesn’t move anyone in the NHS queue backwards.

As for making it impossible for people to choose private treatment instead of the NHS... Seriously? You would ban private medicine? Blimey.

[KerrAvon]

Average earnings in 1948 around £400 pa
In 2017 around £27000
about 65 fold
Of course we can afford it just needs the will
Go figure

You should try out for a place in the Labour Treasury team.

The figures that I gave for the cost of the NHS were adjusted for inflation (hence the words ‘roughly £15 billion at today's value’) whereas the figures you give for average wages aren’t. If you want to take inflation out of the equation for the cost of the NHS, £437 million in 1948 to £116.4 billion in 2015/16 represents a 266 fold increase.

Comparing the 266 fold increase in the cost of the NHS compared to your 65 fold increase in average wages kind of emphasises my point. Go figure.

Saying 'of course we can afford it' isn’t enough. It needs more than will to fund the NHS, it needs money.

[KerrAvon]

All thi flim flam has not looked at the central issue of unequal access to healthcare within NHS facilities.

(just as an aside-- Is the BUPA or other medical insurance scheme that some firms (often financial institutions) give their employees taxable ?. If say your firm offers you, say, £4000 on top of your income or family BUPA membership the former is taxable but is the insurance ? A similar tax avoidance scam with company cars was dealt with but I cant remember any details abart this area)

The private use of NHS facilities partly funds the NHS. If you want to stop it then you would need to decide where you are going to find the money to fill the gap or whether you would simply cut services.

Health insurance is a taxable benefit. It is offered by a range of employers.

[KerrAvon]

What they are doing is to force workers out of the NHS to a subsidiary .

Now the transferred staff will take their current NHS rights with them and have them guaranteed , no problem .

But wait ........

Staff leave or retire , replacement staff coming in will most likely be offered lesser terms and most likely no bargaining tools .

This undermines the workforce and if you play the game long enough totally divides the service staff .

If you have the floor to yourself with little or no resistance to pay and bargaining power you make it more attractive to potential private investors .

This is back door privatisation , nothing more and nothing less .

That's my view as you have yours .

End .

The question you have to ask yourself is whether the country can continue to afford NHS ‘rights’ for employees. Chief among them will be the NHS defined benefits pension. Like most such schemes, it is becoming too expensive for the same reason that the NHS is in trouble, which is that people live longer. Such schemes were fine when a person might only be expected to live for 10 years after retirement, but when that figure extends to 15 or 20 years they become prohibitively expensive. Many company schemes have been closed to new members for that very reason (in the private sector, the problem has been exacerbated by the poor investment performance of the funds themselves).

The agenda is to cut the costs of the NHS in order to be able to maintain the delivery of services. If it was privatisation, the Trusts would simply outsource by ringing up the likes of Serco or Amey or Mitie and inviting them to tender for the work.

And what is your objection to privatisation, if it isn't simply ideological?

[Exiletyke]

But it's the same "shopkeeper" serving in both shops

So where does the consultant get his transferred hours from to feed back in
If he is working as an NHS consultant but "diverts" some of his time to another queue how is that not lengthening the NHS queue
No I never said I would ban private medicine but that's what it should be PRIVATE
Anyway I am already annoyed with myself for even attempting to respond to your self serving tripe
So I will not respond further

[KerrAvon]

Fair enough. Run away when it becomes too difficult.

An NHS Consultant who undertakes private work isn't 'diverting' his NHS time. He has two separate employers for whom he works part time. Going back to my coffee shop analogy, if the barista who served me sometimes works in the other shop, my purchasing decision this morning could still only serve to prevent the queue in that shop growing.

If the Consultant chose to give up his private practice, that would have no bearing upon the NHS, unless they could afford to take him on full time, which goes back to the money point.

[upthecolliers]

But it's the same "shopkeeper" serving in both shops

So where does the consultant get his transferred hours from to feed back in
If he is working as an NHS consultant but "diverts" some of his time to another queue how is that not lengthening the NHS queue
No I never said I would ban private medicine but that's what it should be PRIVATE
Anyway I am already annoyed with myself for even attempting to respond to your self serving tripe
So I will not respond further

I thought you had more sense Exile than to respond in the 1st place to this Kerr Avon I'm sure you've more knowledge about the NHS in your little finger than this UKIP voter has, it's only after confrontation . Wish it would go away then I'll make a come back and talk shyte and football agean.

[Exiletyke]

I thought you had more sense Exile than to respond in the 1st place to this Kerr Avon I'm sure you've more knowledge about the NHS in your little finger than this UKIP voter has, it's only after confrontation . Wish it would go away then I'll make a come back and talk shyte and football agean.

Agree you're right Mr C although I did say I am annoyed with myself