+ Visit Notts. County FC Mad for Latest News, Transfer Gossip, Fixtures and Match Results
Page 7 of 22 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 211

Thread: O/T:- Votes, scores and first past the post predictions 12.12.2019

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    444
    Quote Originally Posted by Lullapie View Post
    I am vehemently against any form of proportional representation, but looking at the latest poll, it just further reinstalls my view that what is the point of voting for The Greens. The kind of person who votes Green, without proportional representation must have had their brains removed. A total wasted vote.
    Happy to admit I voted Green in 2017. Wasted vote? Absolutely. But then I live in Vauxhall; have a look at the voting figures for the last several elections, and tell me just how much value my vote had or did not have.

    Outside chance that it will be more debatable this year, with Kate Hoey stepping down, but if you are a Tory living here (I'm not) then you still have as much chance of your vote mattering here as I do of marrying Jennifer Lawrence in a ceremony on the surface of Jupiter. Or Notts not finding a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at some point in the next 12 months.

    PR isn't perfect, but FPTP is just disenfranchising. I'm not scared of coalitions - what would be so wrong with two ideologies having to attempt consensus? Same reason the US has the three branches of governance, limits the risk of someone gaining power unchecked.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    444
    Quote Originally Posted by sevens_a_secret View Post
    Can someone remind me why you need to have a government again?

    All I can see is so called grown-ups falling over themselves to hand their political agency to someone else to wield for them. In most cases to people clearly not to be trusted, but you'll do it anyway.

    Isn't it time you all grew up and stopped asking for Mummy and Daddy to do it for you and instead got up of your knees and took control of your own lives?

    It's pathetic really. You deserve the crap coming to you...
    How exactly would this work?

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    2,241
    Quote Originally Posted by the_anticlough View Post
    FPTP has always imposed Govts that a large majority of the population do not want.
    It forces our politics into a dysfunctional 2-party system which just doesn't serve a complex, modern society with so many competing ideologies and outlooks.

    The referendum was on Alternative Vote (AV) not STV. Let's not sugarcoat it, the tories ate the Lib dems alive in Govt. Most people can't even remember that referendum, it got so little attention. Clegg was so brow-beaten, he even seemed apologetic for having it so lame was the campaign.

    Anyway, the point I'm making is FPTP is essentially an anti-democratic system. Anyone supporting it backs political representation (and actual power) being disproportional to actual votes. I just don't think that's defensible
    Well we disagree then.

    You have just posted that Cameron brow beat Clegg in a coalition government so maybe you agree coalition government is not really the answer.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    8,990
    Quote Originally Posted by forwardmagpie View Post
    Well we disagree then.

    You have just posted that Cameron brow beat Clegg in a coalition government so maybe you agree coalition government is not really the answer.
    I knew you'd say that!
    I think the Lib Dems gave a masterclass in how not to go into coalition. Talk about selling yourself short. Everyone remembers it as Cameron and Osborne's Govt and there was almost nothing Clegg wouldn't suck up - tuition fees, bedroom tax. It was like a Man U v Salford town cup final with the latter just happy to be there.
    The DUP did far better in their less formal coalition with May.

    The examples do not alter the basic undemocratic nature of FPTP, both added extra representation (of sorts). The problem is they're the exceptions not the rule. Usually 35% is enough to win absolute power over everybody.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    7,546
    Quite enjoying this debate about FPTP. A quick search online of previous elections does make some interesting reading.

    In 2015 Cameron's Conservatives won a majority with 330 seats, just over 36% of the votes and almost exactly 2 million votes more than Ed Millibands Labour with 29% of the votes. Labour lost 26 seats that election, whilst the Tories gained 24. The SNP gained 50 seats but the Lib Dems lost 49, add together the number of actual votes for both these two parties and it represents just under 25% of the votes, about 4.8 million.

    So Tory 330 seats 36%, Labour 232 seats 29%.

    Compare this to Tony Blair's third election win in 2005 where he managed 355 seats but that only represented 35.2% of the votes, just 2.8% and 770k more votes than Michael Howard's Conservatives. Charles Kennedy's Lib Dems managed 22%, just shy of 6 million votes.

    This makes it look like there were three contenders but if you look at the votes per seat won it makes for slightly different reading.

    Votes per seat: Labour 26,908 | Tory 44,368 | Lib Dem 96,540. Thats a lot of votes won by the Lib Dems for very little gain.

    I suppose in theory you could look at increasing the number of seats required for a majority from 326 to whatever but then an actual majority win would become less likely resulting in continuously hung parliaments. If nothing else it is clear that FPTP has benefited both of the main parties over the years.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    9,976
    Orrible b@stsrds but Ukip got 4m votes in 2015 and no MPs. Democracy my arse.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    7,546
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatPie View Post
    Orrible b@stsrds but Ukip got 4m votes in 2015 and no MPs. Democracy my arse.
    In 2017 Labour gained Kensington from the Tories by 20 votes, 0.05% of the vote. I just use this as an example of how marginal some of the voting can be at a local level as well.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    1,606
    Quote Originally Posted by maddogslater View Post
    The planet is dying, species going extinct, rain forests destroyed, the earth torn and raped, rivers and lakes polluted, the oceans used as a trash can and you say voting green is a waste.
    Do you live in a country where the Greens have any say in Government? I do. The man thing they will be remembered for here is introducing a referendum to legalise Cannabis use, while increasing the mental health budget exponentially. The biggest user of international travel is the Minister for Climate Change, who did double the international travel in 2018 of the next minister. The Minister for Climate Change is also the leader of the Green Party. Hypocrites! If you think they will have any impact on saving the planet, you’ll probably be getting up Christmas Day morning, excited to see what Santa Claus has left you.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    1,606
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu_pie View Post
    Happy to admit I voted Green in 2017. Wasted vote? Absolutely. But then I live in Vauxhall; have a look at the voting figures for the last several elections, and tell me just how much value my vote had or did not have.

    Outside chance that it will be more debatable this year, with Kate Hoey stepping down, but if you are a Tory living here (I'm not) then you still have as much chance of your vote mattering here as I do of marrying Jennifer Lawrence in a ceremony on the surface of Jupiter. Or Notts not finding a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at some point in the next 12 months.

    PR isn't perfect, but FPTP is just disenfranchising. I'm not scared of coalitions - what would be so wrong with two ideologies having to attempt consensus? Same reason the US has the three branches of governance, limits the risk of someone gaining power unchecked.
    I live in a country that has it. It doesn’t work. It’s an ideology only. A bit like Communism or Marxism or Fascism.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    1,606
    FPTP generally gives you a government that has the power to introduce their policies. PR doesn’t. In countries where PR is the electoral system, you end up with indecision and wishy-washy compromise. Some people here love it because ‘it means every vote counts ‘, but in our system we have List MPs, who come in under the PR system and are accountable to nobody. Outside of Parliament many who support PR are too young to remember FPTP or don’t understand how politics work.

Page 7 of 22 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •