O/T:- Come on Emma!

[laddo]

Well done Emma, the greatest sporting achievement this country has ever seen IMO.

Fantastic final, as good a straight sets match as you will ever see.

[Magpies1959]

If place of birth denotes nationality, there were a lot of English people cheering for India in the recent curtailed test series. As far as I am aware Ms Radacanu is happy to be consideed British, however much this upsets some small minded people, that love playing the race card.

[forwardmagpie]

If place of birth denotes nationality, there were a lot of English people cheering for India in the recent curtailed test series. As far as I am aware Ms Radacanu is happy to be consideed British, however much this upsets some small minded people, that love playing the race card.

Agreed she is a credit to the country she grew up in.

[forwardmagpie]

Don’t we now have to discriminate against the whole world?

Forward magpie the answer to your quiz question is Barnier. Do I win a prize?

Correct, now Barnier is in the real world his views have modified, do you think that may happen to others when they are in the real world BFP

[countygump]

Correct, now Barnier is in the real world his views have modified, do you think that may happen to others when they are in the real world BFP

I noticed that one as well,

Ohh the ironing..........


''Michel Barnier said France needed to regain the sovereignty lost in European courts on Thursday and called for a referendum on banning non -EU immigration''.


https://securebooks.in/2021/09/09/mi...e%20UK%20talks.

[applepie2]

Oh god, sorry Swale, just realised I've dragged myself into politics on this thread. Apologies.

It’s an off topic thread, so not a hanging offence, I imagine!

[BigFatPie]

Of course it's not a good thing. But it's no better to restrict the freedom of companies and public organisations to the extent they are forced to appoint people who are less competent than others. And that's exactly what happened. When you can't appoint an outstanding Dr from India who has done their medical degree at a top Indian uni, in English, but you have to appoint someone from the EU instead, that's madness. And terrible for patients. At least now, if a post is left unfilled by a person with a right to work in the UK, it's open to the world. That's a better principle, although tbh I'd like to see the shortage occupation list extended to make the visa process for those from the EU and the rest of the world easier.

And I'd best not even start on the effect of the EWTD on medical training and patient care.

I wish we were still in the EU, but it'd be foolish to suggest there weren't also immense problems within it. I say that as someone who spent a number of years working on the implementation of one piece of EU legislation in an NHS region.

Sorry Swale!

A quick google search tells us that;

‘There are 25,281 India-qualified doctors in the UK, accounting for 9% of doctors registered with the General Medical Council.12 Apr 2017’.

Whatever rule it was stopping Indian qualified doctors from coming to the UK, it wasn’t a very strict one, though you obviously have knowledge that those figures don’t reflect. No idea how many EU qualified doctors there were or are now but in 2014 the Times said;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...eu-x8l72tbgw9p

Is there any actual evidence that we were bringing in less competent doctors or patients came to harm because of EU rules? Happy to see it if there was, but if so I’m surprised they didn’t put it on the side of a bus rather than make up the stuff they did.

Anyway the bigger picture is that restricting the number of people who can work here in the way that we have is causing major headaches in the short term and will more than likely continue to do so in the medium and long term.

[cher1]

A quick google search tells us that;

‘There are 25,281 India-qualified doctors in the UK, accounting for 9% of doctors registered with the General Medical Council.12 Apr 2017’.

Whatever rule it was stopping Indian qualified doctors from coming to the UK, it wasn’t a very strict one, though you obviously have knowledge that those figures don’t reflect. No idea how many EU qualified doctors there were or are now but in 2014 the Times said;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...eu-x8l72tbgw9p

Is there any actual evidence that we were bringing in less competent doctors or patients came to harm because of EU rules? Happy to see it if there was, but if so I’m surprised they didn’t put it on the side of a bus rather than make up the stuff they did.

Anyway the bigger picture is that restricting the number of people who can work here in the way that we have is causing major headaches in the short term and will more than likely continue to do so in the medium and long term.

Many of those Indian doctors came over before the restrictions in recruiting from outside the EEA came in. Some will be included because they are junior enough in their career to be working on a student visa (first and second year after qualifying). Then they would likely have to leave despite having done their medical degree here.

Others will come because their role was advertised (for a set period of time) and no EEA candidates came forward. So then (eventually) trusts would have been allowed to advertise again, and applicants from outside Europe could be considered. The Border Agency/Force would visit and require evidence that this whole process had been followed to the letter. Meanwhile, trusts have to manage with one - or more - vacant medical posts whilst all this is going on.

Others will have been able to come because their specialty is on the shortage occupation list.

As for coming to harm, I gave a specific example earlier. I'd think there were plenty more, after all if you aren't allowed to test the language skills of a doctor, what could possibly go wrong?! Fortunately, that was changed eventually, but it took years.

As for other examples of harm/competence, I need to be vague, but after some mass EU recruitment from one part of Europe, a cohort may have been removed from their posts en masse. Let's say that's a rather unusual event.

As for harm due to the EWTD, it's not easily measurable, and it's a really complex area. However, if you visit someone in hospital, you'll notice that almost all junior doctors now work shifts, which is a direct result of these regulations. Consequently the team structures within medicine has been dismantled to an extent, and junior doctors (that's everyone apart from consultants) can't be mentored and learn from following patients through their care when they are working factory hours and have to clock off.

The Royal College of Surgeons were against the introduction of the EWTD from the start, and more recently, here's what they say: https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-ev...e-discussions/. I think it's safe to say that if the quality of training is impacted, harm will likely follow.

I agree entirely with your final paragraph. The application process for a tier 2 visa is ridiculously tortuous and takes ages. I'd like to see a much shorter, simpler process for all shortage occupations.

Apologies to everyone else, this is probably really boring!

[Riverleeno]

Many of those Indian doctors came over before the restrictions in recruiting from outside the EEA came in. Some will be included because they are junior enough in their career to be working on a student visa (first and second year after qualifying). Then they would likely have to leave despite having done their medical degree here.

Others will come because their role was advertised (for a set period of time) and no EEA candidates came forward. So then (eventually) trusts would have been allowed to advertise again, and applicants from outside Europe could be considered. The Border Agency/Force would visit and require evidence that this whole process had been followed to the letter. Meanwhile, trusts have to manage with one - or more - vacant medical posts whilst all this is going on.

Others will have been able to come because their specialty is on the shortage occupation list.

As for coming to harm, I gave a specific example earlier. I'd think there were plenty more, after all if you aren't allowed to test the language skills of a doctor, what could possibly go wrong?! Fortunately, that was changed eventually, but it took years.

As for other examples of harm/competence, I need to be vague, but after some mass EU recruitment from one part of Europe, a cohort may have been removed from their posts en masse. Let's say that's a rather unusual event.

As for harm due to the EWTD, it's not easily measurable, and it's a really complex area. However, if you visit someone in hospital, you'll notice that almost all junior doctors now work shifts, which is a direct result of these regulations. Consequently the team structures within medicine has been dismantled to an extent, and junior doctors (that's everyone apart from consultants) can't be mentored and learn from following patients through their care when they are working factory hours and have to clock off.

The Royal College of Surgeons were against the introduction of the EWTD from the start, and more recently, here's what they say: https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-ev...e-discussions/. I think it's safe to say that if the quality of training is impacted, harm will likely follow.

I agree entirely with your final paragraph. The application process for a tier 2 visa is ridiculously tortuous and takes ages. I'd like to see a much shorter, simpler process for all shortage occupations.

Apologies to everyone else, this is probably really boring!

Not boring at all - an inte

[jackal2]

As far as I am aware Ms Radacanu is happy to be considered British, however much this upsets some small minded people, that love playing the race card.

That's the ridiculous thing about the way this thread has gone.

I haven't actually seen any poster, nor for that matter heard anyone on my travels, who isn't delighted by Emma Raducanu's success. This thread was begun and continued by people (including me) who desperately wanted her to win and celebrated when she did, as a British player. Nobody was disputing her Britishness, nor for that matter disrespecting her Chinese and Romanian heritage.

The problem is the subsequent warped inference that anyone who maybe voted for Brexit, and/or maybe voted for a right-wing party at the General Election, is somehow not entitled to cheer for her without being labelled a hypocrite. It's such complete twaddle that it barely dignifies a response. Then again, I shouldn't really complain, because it's precisely that kind of sanctimonious, intolerant attitude which has kept the so-called 'progressives' out of government for quite a while now.