O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[andy6025]

Just come across this on Quora though summary reports are in the main press, but this seems to be the full letter, written before today's news.

Touching letter. Gets you right here.

What its author fails to realize is that Trump genuinely believes he is the only one saving Ukraine, and that the likes of Biden, Johnson, Zelensky, Macron, and Tusk, etc., are the ones responsible for wrecking it and killing over a million people. As such, a letter like this might as well just say:

Please, sir, please. Please may we wreck it some more?

The answer is pretty obvious.

[BigFatPie]

Touching letter. Gets you right here.

What its author fails to realize is that Trump genuinely believes he is the only one saving Ukraine, and that the likes of Biden, Johnson, Zelensky, Macron, and Tusk, etc., are the ones responsible for wrecking it and killing over a million people. As such, a letter like this might as well just say:

Please, sir, please. Please may we wreck it some more?

The answer is pretty obvious.

I was reading earlier about how if President Rapist really was a Russian asset what would he do differently. The answer is *not much* but the same question could be asked of Andy. Has NCM got its own Fifth Columnist?

Vance has also been dismissing the UK and France as *random countries* who havent been to war in 30 or 40 years. I think Trump has done the impossible and found a worst person than him to be VP.

[andy6025]

I was reading earlier about how if President Rapist really was a Russian asset what would he do differently. The answer is *not much* but the same question could be asked of Andy. Has NCM got its own Fifth Columnist?

Vance has also been dismissing the UK and France as *random countries* who havent been to war in 30 or 40 years. I think Trump has done the impossible and found a worst person than him to be VP.

If Trump was a Russian asset, what would he have done differently? Well that is an easy one. In his first term he would not have supplied the heavy weapons to Ukraine that he did and even Obama refused to supply. How do the conspiracy theorists explain that decision? Likewise he would not have bombed and occupied parts of Syria? How do the conspiracy theorists reconcile that? Nor would he have withdrawn from the INF treaty or the open skies verification treaty.

But let us assume that you are correct - Trump is a Russian asset and it is now Russia and America vs Ukraine backed by some of Europe. What should little old Ukraine and England do now?

In other words, given your new shocking revelation, what is your definition of victory and how do you propose to achieve it? And keep in my that a good strategist should also forecast how their enemy will respond to your moves. You have to remain a number of steps ahead.

So go ahead. Tell us how it is done.

[Jampie]

Touching letter. Gets you right here.

What its author fails to realize is that Trump genuinely believes he is the only one saving Ukraine, and that the likes of Biden, Johnson, Zelensky, Macron, and Tusk, etc., are the ones responsible for wrecking it and killing over a million people. As such, a letter like this might as well just say:

Please, sir, please. Please may we wreck it some more?

The answer is pretty obvious.

How do you know what Trump believes, genuinely or otherwise? Do you take him at his word? I don't believe you do. I have seen evidence in this very thread that you're an intelligent human being. Which rules out believing anything Trump says at face value.

And assuming he did believe that Ukraine and its allies are responsible for the destruction for fighting back and for giving Ukraine the tools to do so, respectively, instead of, you know, the people who actually started the war by invading and are still attacking to this day. Assuming he really believes that, then he's an idiot. Because obviously Putin is responsible. Obviously the invading Russian armed forces are responsible. If Putin hadn't given the order, or the Russians had stayed home, there would have been none of the destruction and loss of life.

Do you honestly believe the Ukrainians should have just rolled over and given up, and let Putin turn them into a puppet state (or worse)?

[andy6025]

Tump's first impeachment was for refusing to reply those heavy weapons. People have short memories.

That is incorrect.

His first impeachment was for attempting to leverage an investigation into Hunter Biden?s activities in Ukraine in exchange for a $400m package that included assistance for maritime security, special operations units, secure communications and light weapons like sniper rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

There were no heavy weapons as part of that package.

People have a short memory indeed.

[Old_pie]

Making friends with Russia means USA sees no need for NATO and no need to support for Ukraine. Think of the billions of dollars that the Musk administration can save. And access to all those minerals and more in Ukraine. Financial sense, dishonourable and will in the long term be a disaster for all.

[TheBlackHorse]

...snide, as ever, andypandy .

[i961pie]

Touching letter. Gets you right here.

What its author fails to realize is that Trump genuinely believes he is the only one saving Ukraine, and that the likes of Biden, Johnson, Zelensky, Macron, and Tusk, etc., are the ones responsible for wrecking it and killing over a million people. As such, a letter like this might as well just say:

Please, sir, please. Please may we wreck it some more?

The answer is pretty obvious.

Blimey that's a short reply from you Andy? It's usually a 14 page rambling dossier on our much you love Putin. I like the short version even if it is your usual crap.

[andy6025]

How do you know what Trump believes, genuinely or otherwise? Do you take him at his word? I don't believe you do. I have seen evidence in this very thread that you're an intelligent human being. Which rules out believing anything Trump says at face value.

And assuming he did believe that Ukraine and its allies are responsible for the destruction for fighting back and for giving Ukraine the tools to do so, respectively, instead of, you know, the people who actually started the war by invading and are still attacking to this day. Assuming he really believes that, then he's an idiot. Because obviously Putin is responsible. Obviously the invading Russian armed forces are responsible. If Putin hadn't given the order, or the Russians had stayed home, there would have been none of the destruction and loss of life.

Do you honestly believe the Ukrainians should have just rolled over and given up, and let Putin turn them into a puppet state (or worse)?

I think Zelensky ought to have gone with his first instinct when Russia invaded. In the video linked to the article below, dated March 22, 2022, he is shown saying,

(Quote) Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point. It was the main point for the Russian Federation as far as I can remember. And if I remember correctly this is why they started the war. . . I understand it is impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to World War Three. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began. And then we will try to solve the Donbas issue, the complicated Donbas issue. (end quote)

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-03-27/

But then Boris Johnson showed up and, according to multiple members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, told him to stop the negotiations. I think that was a fatal mistake.

As for what Trump genuinely believes or not. I believe it to be the case because long before he ever sought the nomination for Republican candidate for president, and here I am referring about well back even into the 80s, he had always consistently talked in interviews about it being better cooperate with Russia/Soviets.

But let us even assume that I am wrong and that Trump does not genuinely believe that Zelensky and co. are responsible for wrecking Ukraine. For whatever reason, Trump is lying. Nevertheless, be has cut off American assistance to Ukraine. Zelensky has declared he will not negotiate with the Russians.

So then, what is victory for the Ukrainians and how will it be achieved?

[Jampie]

I think Zelensky ought to have gone with his first instinct when Russia invaded. In the video linked to the article below, dated March 22, 2022, he is shown saying,

(Quote) Security guarantees and neutrality, non-nuclear status of our state. We are ready to go for it. This is the most important point. It was the main point for the Russian Federation as far as I can remember. And if I remember correctly this is why they started the war. . . I understand it is impossible to force Russia completely from Ukrainian territory. It would lead to World War Three. I understand it and that is why I am talking about a compromise. Go back to where it all began. And then we will try to solve the Donbas issue, the complicated Donbas issue. (end quote)

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2022-03-27/

But then Boris Johnson showed up and, according to multiple members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, told him to stop the negotiations. I think that was a fatal mistake.

As for what Trump genuinely believes or not. I believe it to be the case because long before he ever sought the nomination for Republican candidate for president, and here I am referring about well back even into the 80s, he had always consistently talked in interviews about it being better cooperate with Russia/Soviets.

But let us even assume that I am wrong and that Trump does not genuinely believe that Zelensky and co. are responsible for wrecking Ukraine. For whatever reason, Trump is lying. Nevertheless, be has cut off American assistance to Ukraine. Zelensky has declared he will not negotiate with the Russians.

So then, what is victory for the Ukrainians and how will it be achieved?

Trump has thus far offered no security guarantees that I'm aware of.

There are three paths to ending this war without Ukraine become some kind of puppet or vassal to Russia.

1. Continue the war until putin dies of old age or is removed or because of the damage his war has done to the Russian people, state, military, and economy. This is one of the worst options IMO but it's what "the west" were supporting, effectively, until recently
2. Ramp up assistance for Ukraine so 1) happens a lot faster, minimising harm. This is my preferred option and has been since 2022.
3. A ceasefire and negotiated solution in place. This is also a bad option IMO, not least because Trump and Putin are not honest negotiators and neither of them are remotely interested in what's best for Ukraine. However, it's an option. It requires western security guarantees that extend to the level of going to war with Russia (boots on the ground and all) if they break the agreement. This is the only thing that will stop Putin from just continuing the war when he feels ready again like he did with the last several treaties. It's also a bad option because letting Putin get away with _any_ gains sends a message to the world that you can invade and conquer territories and keep them, again, something that has been emphatically off the table since WWII.