Careless Tories!

[swaledale]

An interesting point, and a bit more grown up a perspective than that offered by Swale and his inevitable coda. I could offer an anecdote from today which backs it up but I know they get upset by anecdotes, but in summary it IS easy if one is that way inclined and if one reads one of the many 'how tos' knocking around on the internet

Nice idea to make 'a Zahawi' a unit of measure

What utter tosh!

You make a broad generalisation based on examples that you may know ( to be honest I'd question your "experience" because you often trot out something similar, but hey ho)

AS for doing your usual patronising "grown up perspective, mm your the one who throws out some clearly half arsed opinion based on zero facts and then gets a little uppity when its challenged.

It would indeed be nice to have a grown up debate, but if your offended when your narrow perspective is challenged as a basis for making a broad assumption about a supposed significant minority who apparently choose to claim benefits rather than work, and then fail spectaculary each time to be able to provide any concrete evidence for that assertion, its rather difficult.

Not of course that you have any actual knowledge that the people involved "chose" that life style! You might perhaps want to research what one gets on the benefits system and consider whether anyone would choose to live on benefits?

Thats just an example of you looking down on a certain section of the population and making inaccurate assumptions.

Only this week the daily fail published an inaccurate report which had been fed to them by a right wing think tank about how 52% of the population "took more from the state than they contributed". Somehow forgetting that over 50% of those are pensioners, who were entitled to claim after having paid in to the system and that another significant proportion were people in work who claimed tax credits because their wages were so low!!

Given that unemployment is currently around 4%, which statistically is classed as full employment given there will always be a proportion of the population who are unable to work for many justifiable reasons, it follows that your assertion about a significant number choosing to claim benefits rather than work isn't correct.

As for a Zahawi being a unit of measure, well I guess this will illuminate you - Tax fraud cost the UK £20 billion in 2018-19, nine times more than benefit fraud (£2.2 billion), according to research from think tank TaxWatch, and the DWP employs 3.5 times more staff to enforce rules than HMRC.

A fair few Zahawi's there I think?

Ah yes anecdotal evidence and what you have gleaned off the internet, thats always the sort of evidence that I'd used to form an opinion of a subject, not really sure why you expect your views to be taken seriously when thats your source of information.

I did point out that I am sure there are people who claim benefits and by working cash in hand make it work, in fact I know there are, but simple research would indicate that it isn't that significant, other than in the minds of Tory politicians and certain citizens who seek easy targets to attack, knowing the venal disposition of the average voter.

[swaledale]

Again I agree...I don’t however recall using insults and name calling. Perhaps you can show otherwise...or maybe a case of ‘physician heal thyself’. Enjoy Marrakesh.

AF is only insulted because I challenged a prejudicial comment made by him which is clearly based on hearsay, anecdotal accounts and whatever he has read on the internet! It ranks alongside his comment on the supposed overrepresentation of ethnic minority persons in the media as evidence of the narrow perspective of his world.

I avoided any insults or name calling, but clearly I will have to let him down more gently in the future because he is such a sensitive fellow.

[swaledale]

I thought rear gunner had been overdone. Its not against anyone's rules to respond, but it does get tiresome when its almost guaranteed that you'll both comment, then go tee heeing to each other about the absurdity of any POV that contradicts yours.

No I haven't taken to task Swale calling into question the intelligence/wisdom of the electorate, I've called him out for calling them (all) 'thick', JUST for their Brexit vote. That's a slur no more defensible than a racist or ***ist one, and just issued because of his frustration with the outcome. I'll happily substitute my 'thick' for 'not too bright' but I'm talking about those who through no fault of their own are condemned to a hard life, NOT about a broad swathe of people who just happened to make a choice, based on the best info they had, that Swale didn't agree with.

Agreeing with some of your last point (I think), and I think the whole governing/opposing class of 2014ish should hang their heads in shame for letting the electorate make a massive decision based on such incomplete information - not lies, and there were lies on both sides, just a complete lack of objective information to support any personal decision

Not sure why your blaming the opposition parties, it was solely the decision of the Tories and Cameron in particular to attempt to silence the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party and fend off the populist right wing UKIP factions to have a referendum.

The Tory party were very fond of blaming the EU for matters it was entirely within the power of the UK government but which they didn't want to take responsibility for. Keep using a scapegoat and a large proportion of the electorate will believe you.

If Labour made a mistake, it was when they were in power and didn't apply the restrictions on free movement to citizens of new countries that joined the EU. But then those migrants fuelled the economic boom and increased taxes which paid for the NHS Education etc etc. So people were happy to enjoy that but less happy to hear Polish spoken in supermarkets!

It wasn't incomplete information! At least not on the Leave side, it was obvious and clear lies - one example, the net contribution made by the UK each week to the EU was £160 million, not £350 million. Even that lower figure is without context as absolutely no mention was made of the economic benefit that accrued through membership of the customs union and single market which as is now very clear worth many times that!!

There were numerous other lies, not disinformation, such as a) we will enjoy basically the same benefits outside the EU as within it, there will be frictionless trade, we will be able to do more and better trade deals with the rest of the world once out of the EU, a trade deal with the EU will be one of the easiest in history. Turkey will join the EU soon and millions of Turks will come to the UK - there is even a poster with Farage saying this!!

So the leave campaign was largely based on xenophobic fear of immigration which was deliberately stirred up in a way reminiscent of the Nazi's in the 1930's.

Utter lies about the nature of our relationship and the impact on the UK if we left.

Some vague bull**** about sovereignty and a lack of clarity as to what this actually means.

I don't label people thick based on my frustration with the outcome, indeed I have some sympathy with those at the bottom end of the economic scale, but I do despair at many older (though not always) often well educated people who voted leave and who are unable to tell me one valid reason for doing so, but trot out a lot of inaccurate reasons, which can quite simply be shown to be false. To me if you believe stuff that is very clearly not true then the only explanation is that your rather thick! The archetypical Gammon, a flag shagging **** living in the 50's or rather wanting to return back there.

I dispute what lies were told by the remain side, it was a lack lustre campaign that failed to explain clearly how the UK benefits from the membership of the EU but I cant recall any outright lies. As subsequent events have shown, most of what was called "project fear" has turned out to be true.

[SithHappens]

The media are definitely responsible for some peoples perception on benefits cheats, or migrants living in the lap of luxury. How many times have we seen stories in the Sun or other rag showing someone with 8 kids living in a mansion paid for by the state, or someone come in from Romania or somewhere and living in luxury?

And i am sure most of us actually know someone who swings it when it comes to claiming benefits, or have known someone. But most of this data is anecdotal and its a poor measure of whats actually happening. I know or have known a few people who i know were exaggerating illness or medical conditions in order to not have to work, but i know many many more who don't do that so as a % its really really low.

The tax fraud vs benefits is interesting too. I certainly know more people who commit tax fraud, not at high level but cash jobs, not declaring it etc. Lets face it have someone round to give you a price on some work that needs doing and more often than not they will ask for cash and give an incentive to do so. I doubt many of us say 'no id rather pay you more so you declare your earnings'. Doesnt make it right and collectively those that do this will cost an awful lot of money in unpaid taxes. Where do we draw the line on being up in arms about not paying tax? When does it cross the line as being acceptable or not?

On the number of people drawing more from the state than they pay n, i bet its more than 52%. I know i do and i work and have paid lots of taxes all my life but the past 10 years nearly my medication at a cost of 40k a year approx will mean i have likely drawn out more than ill ever pay in.

[MadAmster]

I'm guilty of the opposite. If I declared the cost of the records I buy/sell (buy many more than I sell), initial cost of my decks, mixers, cables, mikes, speakers/monitors, subwoofers, headphones plus the annual electrical safety check on it all and any repairs needed and then wrote that off against what I get in "earnings", I'd pay even less tax than do now (20% rate for me for no other reason than I'm an owd bugger).

The extra income would fund a trip to a home game.

[Geoff Parkstone]

The coda thing was intended in its classical sense, maybe the cordio connection was subconscious as it’s a well used cut on instagram

Agreement is great but sensible discussion on points of disagreement is equally valuable, response with insults and name calling isn’t and we have too much of that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNQHb4Oj34

[Andy_Faber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNQHb4Oj34

A floor clearer from Planet Gong, God rest Daevid Didier Georges and the gang

[Ramshank72]

I'm guilty of the opposite. If I declared the cost of the records I buy/sell (buy many more than I sell), initial cost of my decks, mixers, cables, mikes, speakers/monitors, subwoofers, headphones plus the annual electrical safety check on it all and any repairs needed and then wrote that off against what I get in "earnings", I'd pay even less tax than do now (20% rate for me for no other reason than I'm an owd bugger).

The extra income would fund a trip to a home game.

Pardon me for asking, but why don't you?

[SithHappens]

HMRC Boss Jim Harra has said 'innocent' errors dont result in penalties, you have to think Zahawi is on borrowed time.

Rod Stewart has called for the government to stand aside and let Labour in.

I have to think hes right, or at least have a general election, there is just too much gone on, the Truss period was an utter disaster and while i think Sunak would have maybe had a better go at it had he taken over instead of Truss, i just feel we need a change or they government need a mandate to continue in the form of a general election, which they are unlikely to win anyway.

At the moment it just feels like the government is losing a game of whack a mole, time to let someone else play i think.

[ramAnag]

HMRC Boss Jim Harra has said 'innocent' errors dont result in penalties, you have to think Zahawi is on borrowed time.

Rod Stewart has called for the government to stand aside and let Labour in.

I have to think hes right, or at least have a general election, there is just too much gone on, the Truss period was an utter disaster and while i think Sunak would have maybe had a better go at it had he taken over instead of Truss, i just feel we need a change or they government need a mandate to continue in the form of a general election, which they are unlikely to win anyway.

At the moment it just feels like the government is losing a game of whack a mole, time to let someone else play i think.

At the risk of living up to my glorious new nickname of ‘inevitable coda’...can I just add that, sorry AF, I agree with virtually all that, not only Swale, but also Sith has said.
If you want a grown up debate, AF...let’s have one...trouble is, you chuck out your random statements and claims and then usually run off when they’re challenged...returning some time later with some vaguely insulting comeback. It’s what you do.

On the subject of Mr. Stewart...what Rod the Mod says shouldn’t really concern us...he’s a singer who, imo, hasn’t made a decent record since he left the Faces. Sadly, and this is something of an indictment of our electorate, I suspect Rod’s political about turn will carry more weight
than the opinions of both the leader of the opposition and various well informed political commentators put together.