O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[ramAnag]

It’s a tricky one (no pun intended) - how do you draw the line between those who give reasoned arguments (MA has done so here), total pricks, and the misguided (I’ve noticed media are leaning heavily on ‘south Asian’ (they mean Muslim) reluctance due to rumours of the vaccine containing alcohol and pork extracts, I believe Hindus may be reluctant on the basis of gelatin (false)). Who’s to say which If these factions deserves treatment any more than the other, or any less than vaccine adopters? After all, NHS treat smokers for smoking related illness...

Suspect Muslims aren’t the only religious group to object...Jehovah’s Witnesses for instance would, I imagine, also be unlikely to accept the vaccine.
Ultimately the rationale, whether it be MA’s reasoned argument, the misguided - including perhaps those with religious objections - or the anti vaxxers, makes little difference.
The point is we need as many people vaccinated as possible and although Andy’s point about the NHS treating smokers is a good one, MAYBE it should, at some time in the future, be mandatory for those wishing to attend major indoor gatherings or use communal transport to carry proof that they’ve been vaccinated.
In the meantime...some absolute clarification as regards whether the vaccine includes such things as pork, beef, gelatine and alcohol would certainly help and can’t be that hard to provide.

[MadAmster]

Something like 98% of NL nurses, doctors, care workers etc have made appointments to have the vaccine and the lines have only been open 12 days. That's a huge take up. I'm still a not yet but the medical profession take up has put a tick in the pros column. 29 dead in Norway within days of the jab. Thir**** deaths have been assessed so far, and all the reported deaths are in “elderly people with serious basic disorders”. Average age of the dead is 75..... that's gone in the "makes you think" column.

I shall continue to "monitor" what's happening and constantly update my thoughts accordingly.

[Trickytreesreds]

Some good points.
Personnally, I think anyone who refuses, gets lower priority than someone who did.
But that could or should apply to others like smokers, who come to hospital with respiratory problems.
Or maybe at 18, you should be told that lack of action on your behalf could incur a future health charge?

It certainly doesn't help, when anyone/community are refusing. Especially when you consider that so called BAME communities, appear to suffer infection more than others.

[Andy_Faber]

Suspect Muslims aren’t the only religious group to object...Jehovah’s Witnesses for instance would, I imagine, also be unlikely to accept the vaccine.
Ultimately the rationale, whether it be MA’s reasoned argument, the misguided - including perhaps those with religious objections - or the anti vaxxers, makes little difference.
The point is we need as many people vaccinated as possible and although Andy’s point about the NHS treating smokers is a good one, MAYBE it should, at some time in the future, be mandatory for those wishing to attend major indoor gatherings or use communal transport to carry proof that they’ve been vaccinated.
In the meantime...some absolute clarification as regards whether the vaccine includes such things as pork, beef, gelatine and alcohol would certainly help and can’t be that hard to provide.

On the idea of proof to access some services I’m sure that will happen, and think on this - does the (let’s say) 80% immunity mean a) you get the virus 80% as bad, you are covered against 80% of the chances of infection or you still have a 1 in 5 chance of catching it? I’m not clear on that.

Regarding the take up I’m astounded that one of the most at risk groups should also be one of those least likely to adopt the vaccine (and from my delivery man duties last Friday one of the least likely to do hands face space).

[ramAnag]

Much as the idea of letting non vaxers go untreated appeals, as Andy says smokers plus alcoholics, the obese, drug takers, people in pub fights, dangerous drivers in accidents etc etc all get treated. The NHS is non discriminatory, so those who chose not to vaccinate are in the same position.

However those who have declined the vax might reasonably be asked why when they turn up at hospital with covid and might be deprioritised in favour of those still in the queue for vax. But it's more admin that the NHS doesn't need.

I stopped my 30+ a day habit over forty years ago but, apart from welcoming the smoking ban in public places, have no axe to grind.
It is interesting though that we tend to lambast smokers, drinkers, druggies, the obese etc but never make the same argument about those who indulge in activities involving the risk of injury such as...footballers, rugby players, cricketers, boxers, horse riders, cyclists, rock climbers etc.
Perhaps the latter are all considered more ‘wholesome’ but ultimately they are life choices that probably put just as much strain on the NHS.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I stopped my 30+ a day habit over forty years ago but, apart from welcoming the smoking ban in public places, have no axe to grind.
It is interesting though that we tend to lambast smokers, drinkers, druggies, the obese etc but never make the same argument about those who indulge in activities involving the risk of injury such as...footballers, rugby players, cricketers, boxers, horse riders, cyclists, rock climbers etc.
Perhaps the latter are all considered more ‘wholesome’ but ultimately they are life choices that probably put just as much strain on the NHS.

Fair point. I suppose the perspective is that if it needs to be disclosed when you apply for life insurance, then its risky. if we adopt the "pay to play" approach to health funding, then arguably the one size fits all free health care based of an income driven NI charge is all wrong, actuarially. But the NHS is funded based on an income driven contribution, rather than a proper risk assessment funding model, which is arguably logically more acceptable.

The principle of the NHS is that healthcare should be free to all regardless of such personal bodily abuses, and funding is based on ability to pay rather than risk presented to the system. So non vaxers, refuse vaxers are just as entitled as anyone else to treatment, as the system is currently set up.

There will always be abusers of this system, and covax doesnt really change the model, just adds a new risk dynamic. As someone who has waited in an A&E department with a child with an unfeasibly high temperature, whilst two blokes were treated for injuries in a drunken fight outside a pub knows only too well - life isnt fair.

The idea of a vaccination certificate to enter public events, bars, restaurants etc is appealing and would certainly persuade people to take the vaccine - subject of course to the ever impossible task of policing. if we had a national ID card, it could simply be added to the data on the magnetic stripe, but of course we dont believe in such think as they infringe civil liberties. Hmmmm. perhaps the EU have got that bit right!

[ramAnag]

Fair point. I suppose the perspective is that if it needs to be disclosed when you apply for life insurance, then its risky. if we adopt the "pay to play" approach to health funding, then arguably the one size fits all free health care based of an income driven NI charge is all wrong, actuarially. But the NHS is funded based on an income driven contribution, rather than a proper risk assessment funding model, which is arguably logically more acceptable.

The principle of the NHS is that healthcare should be free to all regardless of such personal bodily abuses, and funding is based on ability to pay rather than risk presented to the system. So non vaxers, refuse vaxers are just as entitled as anyone else to treatment, as the system is currently set up.

There will always be abusers of this system, and covax doesnt really change the model, just adds a new risk dynamic. As someone who has waited in an A&E department with a child with an unfeasibly high temperature, whilst two blokes were treated for injuries in a drunken fight outside a pub knows only too well - life isnt fair.

The idea of a vaccination certificate to enter public events, bars, restaurants etc is appealing and would certainly persuade people to take the vaccine - subject of course to the ever impossible task of policing. if we had a national ID card, it could simply be added to the data on the magnetic stripe, but of course we dont believe in such think as they infringe civil liberties. Hmmmm. perhaps the EU have got that bit right!

Totally identify with your A&E scenario, GP. I’ve been in that situation with an elderly relative...queuing for potentially crucial treatment while some little scrote abused the nurse who’d just bandaged him up.

As for National ID cards...I’ve never really understood the objections. Reckon the majority of people already routinely carry at least five forms of identification with them most of the time. Whether it should be compulsory to carry them at all times is much more debatable.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Probably should be like driving licenses, you can be required to produce them if asked at the local police station, and obviously if you are going somewhere where you need it as proof of age/identity etc you'd need to carry it. Otherwise, like a passport - keep it in a drawer somewhere rather than having to carry around.

[Andy_Faber]

Not connected to anything other than the positive / serious approach everyone seems to be taking to the vaccination process - my father in law has just got his jab date (Wednesday) and Mrs F tells me he’s shedding his normal semi-smart attire and intends to rock up in a suit and tie...

[ramAnag]

Not connected to anything other than the positive / serious approach everyone seems to be taking to the vaccination process - my father in law has just got his jab date (Wednesday) and Mrs F tells me he’s shedding his normal semi-smart attire and intends to rock up in a suit and tie...

Don’t they ask you to wear clothing that is ‘accessible’ as possible to speed the process up? Certainly do for the flu jab.
Maybe he should wear his kilt and be jabbed in the thigh.