OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Can't disagree with that Andy. Cameron and Osborne were complacent and dull witted, Corbyn disinterested and half hearted, as if saving his energy for his anti-Blair tirade which came shortly after. Only Brown spoke with any conviction and people had little faith in him as a result of his poor, short lived and badly timed performance as PM leading up to 2010.

On the other hand, the 'Gang of Four'...Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson...proved themselves to be nothing other than a bunch of back stabbing liars.

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

P.S. The same cannot be said of Currie, Prescott,Portillo or Galloway.

[Andy_Faber]

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

John Major put forward one of the most measured arguments in favour of Remain throughout the whole campaign. Not supported by any hard data, he just sounded believable and with a calm conviction. No slanging match for John.

[BaaLocks]

Would this cooling off period apply if the vote was remain?

Yes, though I do agree with your point that the unknowns associated with leaving are far more widespread than those that will come from staying. Indeed, that in itself was the challenge of a 'Yes / No' referendum - asking people to get motivated about changing nothing is a hard thing to do. Just look at our football club - how much flak is NP getting already for not changing it in terms of personnel (not from all but definitely from many)? It is a hard concept to consider that what you have at the moment might be the best option of those available (even in the case of Richard Keogh).

[ramAnag]

John Major put forward one of the most measured arguments in favour of Remain throughout the whole campaign. Not supported by any hard data, he just sounded believable and with a calm conviction. No slanging match for John.

Actually I do remember him having a little 'dig' at the Machiavellian nature of Duncan Smith on Andrew Marr, but even that was quite measured and, again imo, totally justified.

[Trickytreesreds]

Can't disagree with that Andy. Cameron and Osborne were complacent and dull witted, Corbyn disinterested and half hearted, as if saving his energy for his anti-Blair tirade which came shortly after. Only Brown spoke with any conviction and people had little faith in him as a result of his poor, short lived and badly timed performance as PM leading up to 2010.

On the other hand, the 'Gang of Four'...Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson...proved themselves to be nothing other than a bunch of back stabbing liars.

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

P.S. The same cannot be said of Currie, Prescott,Portillo or Galloway.

Interesting how the statesmen you picked out ramanag, are all ex has beens, who wanted to "remain" .
EU pension or back seat job perhaps?

[AngryRam]

Which is why I'm not claiming it!

I have clearly said, and others have (in higher places that football forums), that both sides failed in presenting a well structured campaign. Farage famously admitted this the day after on the £350m quote, Anna Soubry (for example) has since admitted the remain campaign completely failed to address the immigration question.

The UK people were horribly let down by the quality of the debates and the information made available - but that affected both sides equally. Your words, not mine.

And I now don't think it is acceptable to just say 'oh well, it was all a bit flaky but let's go with it anyway'. This point has no relevance what so ever on whether we should remain or stay, it is to do with the quality of information on which the decision was made and the consequences that will now kick in as a result of that.

Angry says he is happy to exit if that means he needs to get a visa to go to France. No problem, his view and I don't challenge that, what I challenge is that nobody ever suggested that would be where we would end up. The constant argument in the campaign was the EU would find it difficult to deny us free movement of people on account of us being the 5th largest economy in the world / more important than the rest / just damned fine chaps. If we are now in a place where we need visas to get off this island into Europe that is different to what many thought they were voting for. I therefore think it would be only fair to go back to the people and confirm what that 'simple Yes/No question' got us to in terms of concrete actions.

That is the 'contract' that Adi refers to and in any other business deal the initial decision would be supported by a more detailed proposal which can then, should it not be suitable, be rejected or amended. It happens when I buy a Sky box, mobile phone, even a book from Amazon - seems similarly fair that we consider it as an option for the future of our country.

But the Visa argument is extreme, has anyone said that we will need these?
I don't see travel in Europe being any different to what we experience now. Apart from we will have to use the non-eu channel.. It might be quicker.
To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means.. Trade, immigration, phone tariffs, milk and eggs the whole nine yards. Surely once we know that it would be impossible to go back and say.. Nah, sorry Mr Brussels we've changed our minds.
Would it ever be possible to get to that point anyway? We would be a laughing stock globally.
The world is a dangerous place now.. Europe is not managing that.. I'm all for pulling the drawbridge up (a little).. INCOMING
Welcome to the debate by the way.. Where have you been?

[ramAnag]

'To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means'...Glory, Hallelujah...at last one of our leading Brexiteers sees the light and recognises what some of us have been saying for the last two months or more.

That is the point, people didn't know what Brexit meant when they voted back in June and as for becoming a 'laughing stock globally'...our Olympic achievements aside isn't that what we're in danger of becoming anyway...that and an isolated irrelevance.

Someone, probably BaaLocks, earlier today described the Brexit process as like 'unscrambling eggs'. Brilliant analogy imo...a mission impossible perhaps, that Mrs. May has cleverly handed over to 'Leave' minded ministers. Let's see how they get on.

Tricky, htf can anyone be an 'ex-has been'? As for EU pensions and 'back seat jobs' I doubt that any of those I mentioned fit that criteria so, again, I don't really see your point.

[AngryRam]

'To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means'...Glory, Hallelujah...at last one of our leading Brexiteers sees the light and recognises what some of us have been saying for the last two months or more.

That is the point, people didn't know what Brexit meant when they voted back in June and as for becoming a 'laughing stock globally'...our Olympic achievements aside isn't that what we're in danger of becoming anyway...that and an isolated irrelevance.

Someone, probably BaaLocks, earlier today described the Brexit process as like 'unscrambling eggs'. Brilliant analogy imo...a mission impossible perhaps, that Mrs. May has cleverly handed over to 'Leave' minded ministers. Let's see how they get on.

Tricky, htf can anyone be an 'ex-has been'? As for EU pensions and 'back seat jobs' I doubt that any of those I mentioned fit that criteria so, again, I don't really see your point.

See now there you go, jumping in too quickly.. Can you tell me exactly what remaining in will be? Nope of course you can't. Nobody has said that either way.. Classic remainers post.
As we stand globally, the people I speak to admire our bravery.. Nobody said there was not risk involved.
Back in your box my young padawan.

[ramAnag]

It's a while since I was called a 'young' anything so you've got a plus point there.

Self evidently one always has greater knowledge of what is involved when one 'remains' be that...in a house without moving, with a bank without transferring, in a relationship without divorcing, choosing a team without any new signings or staying as part of a community and not quitting.

That isn't an argument for not changing but wise and informed change...in this instance and in your own words...'would need full details of what exit means'. That is something we didn't have in June and still, again by your own admission, are no nearer and that is absolutely the point.

Perhaps it is you who are the impetuous one my agitated cockney friend.

[AngryRam]

It's a while since I was called a 'young' anything so you've got a plus point there.

Self evidently one always has greater knowledge of what is involved when one 'remains' be that...in a house without moving, with a bank without transferring, in a relationship without divorcing, choosing a team without any new signings or staying as part of a community and not quitting.

That isn't an argument for not changing but wise and informed change...in this instance and in your own words...'would need full details of what exit means'. That is something we didn't have in June and still, again by your own admission, are no nearer and that is absolutely the point.

Perhaps it is you who are the impetuous one my agitated cockney friend.

But you neglect to answer my question.. What EXACTLY does remaining in mean? You did not know in June either. You tell me with any certainty what the EU will be like in 10 years? What will be the situation with Turkey? Albania? Can you guarantee me that we will still have a veto? Will with have the euro as a currency? Will Forest have finished above us!
The detail remark was in reply to Baalocks, let's go back and review later remark, what would you be reviewing? Impossible and unrealistic IMO.
Generally My assumption of you is that you don't like change.. I get that impression from your football related posts as well as this thread.. Better the devil you know type of guy. Apologies if I am wrong but that is my mental picture of your good self.
Same route to work everyday? Europe is your comfort blanket. We will thrive outside Europe.. Yes it will have its challenges but we will prevail.
Change can be good.. Same old, same old and you miss opportunity.