O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[queenslandpie]

FWIW the only fact I can see is that love him or loathe him the Trump camp is making more progress than anyone else has, and the old adage that if you repeat the same thing time and time again you get the same result rings true. If the Trump camp stops the war and manages to change the course of history, even for a period of time it will most probably be a good thing for all. Zelensky definitely isn't going to and Putin isn't going to give up. Europe is too weak to do much of consequence other than not buying Russian gas and feeding the Ukranians with arms to prop up a WW1 style stalemate. Regardless of whether or not you like Trump he is trying something different and I hope it works if a few people can put pride to one side.

[Elite_Pie]

Regardless of whether or not you like Trump he is trying something different and I hope it works if a few people can put pride to one side.

The only way it can work is if Zelenskyy puts "pride" to one side and allows Trump and Putin to walk all over him. Incredibly, Trump seems to be persuading some (maybe you?) that this conflict is six of one and half a dozen of the other, rather than an illegal invasion.

[BigFatPie]

What is it about Zelensky/Zelenskyy/Zelenskyyyy that you find impressive? He's a warmonger and also a bit of a grifter, in truth. On a personal level, he's also the spitting image of my bestie when I was 10/11, who was Ukrainian. Objectively, he was also pretty horrible, right-wing, and stole sweets from the off-licence in Lady Bay.

Youll have to elaborate on why you think hes a warmonger.

[queenslandpie]

The only way it can work is if Zelenskyy puts "pride" to one side and allows Trump and Putin to walk all over him. Incredibly, Trump seems to be persuading some (maybe you?) that this conflict is six of one and half a dozen of the other, rather than an illegal invasion.

And there you go with the pride thing Elite. Is it an illegal invasion? Probably. Is it going to be resolve with the current status quo? Almost certainly not. It's not a question of persuasion for me it's a question of resolution. Arguing about whether or not it is an illegal invasion which it probably is isn't going to resolve it. The Trump camp has a better chance of resolution than anyone else. Of course you can argue separately about the cost of that, or we can all butt out leave them to it and see what the outcome of that is ( 100's of thousands of deaths and probably a Russian walkover and complete territorial grab). Or we can negotiate maybe Ukraine has to concede land and Russia has to concede that it won't get what it entirely wants being the much bigger player in the war on a 1:1 basis and therefore being able to dictate terms somewhat.

[Elite_Pie]

And there you go with the pride thing Elite. Is it an illegal invasion? Probably. Is it going to be resolve with the current status quo? Almost certainly not. It's not a question of persuasion for me it's a question of resolution. Arguing about whether or not it is an illegal invasion which it probably is isn't going to resolve it. The Trump camp has a better chance of resolution than anyone else. Of course you can argue separately about the cost of that, or we can all butt out leave them to it and see what the outcome of that is ( 100's of thousands of deaths and probably a Russian walkover and complete territorial grab). Or we can negotiate maybe Ukraine has to concede land and Russia has to concede that it won't get what it entirely wants being the much bigger player in the war on a 1:1 basis and therefore being able to dictate terms somewhat.

Look at it this way - if I steal 100 Aussie dollars from you and refuse to give it back, you would quite rightly fight to get it. Even though I'm 100% in the wrong, someone puts themselves in control and decides we get 50 Aussie dollars each, problem solved. I'd be happy, but would you?

[Mud Pie]

Look at it this way - if I steal 100 Aussie dollars from you and refuse to give it back, you would quite rightly fight to get it. Even though I'm 100% in the wrong, someone puts themselves in control and decides we get 50 Aussie dollars each, problem solved. I'd be happy, but would you?

great post. it's sad how many seemingly intelligent posters/people are twisting themselves in ethical knots trying to find ways to justify Putin's/Trump's behaviour. It's not just 'performative politics' / 'probably illegal' if you're under the foot of these despots. But while it's a thousand miles away from your doorstep, there may appear to be semantic reasons to think Putin and Trump are the saviors we need. Bleh, kind of disgusts me how much of other people's rights you lot are happy to give away. Need to ask yourself where exactly you are on the Pastor Niem?ller scale.

[Elite_Pie]

great post. it's sad how many seemingly intelligent posters/people are twisting themselves in ethical knots trying to find ways to justify Putin's/Trump's behaviour. It's not just 'performative politics' / 'probably illegal' if you're under the foot of these despots. But while it's a thousand miles away from your doorstep, there may appear to be semantic reasons to think Putin and Trump are the saviors we need. Bleh, kind of disgusts me how much of other people's rights you lot are happy to give away. Need to ask yourself where exactly you are on the Pastor Niem?ller scale.

I'm pretty sure that the end result in all of this will be Ukraine being shafted.

The sad thing is that some don't seem to care.

[queenslandpie]

Look at it this way - if I steal 100 Aussie dollars from you and refuse to give it back, you would quite rightly fight to get it. Even though I'm 100% in the wrong, someone puts themselves in control and decides we get 50 Aussie dollars each, problem solved. I'd be happy, but would you?

If I didn't get a good kicking then yeah I might well be. It depends on the personality types involved ultimately and in this case the guy that stole 100 aussie dollars isn't going to give it back but is built like a wall and the guy that it got stolen from thinks he can do a David and Goliath impression. There is only going to be one outcome if nobody intervenes. Of course this assumption also assumes that the guy doing the David and Goliath impression is as innocent of all things as the guy built like a wall is as guilty of all things.

[Elite_Pie]

If I didn't get a good kicking then yeah I might well be. It depends on the personality types involved ultimately and in this case the guy that stole 100 aussie dollars isn't going to give it back but is built like a wall and the guy that it got stolen from thinks he can do a David and Goliath impression. There is only going to be one outcome if nobody intervenes. Of course this assumption also assumes that the guy doing the David and Goliath impression is as innocent of all things as the guy built like a wall is as guilty of all things.

So big guys are allowed to sh!t on little guys, just because they're bigger?

[Mud Pie]

If I didn't get a good kicking then yeah I might well be. It depends on the personality types involved ultimately and in this case the guy that stole 100 aussie dollars isn't going to give it back but is built like a wall and the guy that it got stolen from thinks he can do a David and Goliath impression. There is only going to be one outcome if nobody intervenes. Of course this assumption also assumes that the guy doing the David and Goliath impression is as innocent of all things as the guy built like a wall is as guilty of all things.

so some dag breaks into your house and threatens to off your wife and kids, and you're saying "i'd stand up for them if I didn't think I'd get a good kicking"? It's so easy to think like that when the schit's happening to someone else, eh?