O/T EU Vote In/Out

[ragnarok]

genuine question

have u seen the faces in this poster



do u think farage is a racist

I don't like the poster at all. Of course Farage will claim that it's highlighting a point he has made on numerous occasions (that many of the supposed refugees trying to enter the country are young single males). However, I think it's very different to raise such questions in an interview than it is to make the point with a poster like this which clearly trying to appeal to the concerns of a particular type of voter.

The debate on immigration takes you into some very murky waters. Accusations of racism don't add anything. If there's one subject that requires rational dispassionate debate it is this one.

[Rochead]

Yes I have seen the poster, is he racist? he very well may be despite his denials, only he can answer that question. My opinion of the poster is that it is abhorrent, to use mass refugees in that way is disgusting, however that is the work of UKIP and not the official leave campaign, in my belief immigration should be controlled the way it is in other countries as mention by a previous poster. War refugees, that is a separate matter altogether and nothing to do with whether or not we should leave the European market.
I did not agree with joining the common market, at the time I felt we were cutting out too many other markets, other countries we were dealing with at the time. My preference would be to deal with all markets without any rules coming from Brussels, I do not accept the rhetoric of doom being spouted by the remain team, no country is going to refuse to deal with us if we leave, they have got their own economies to think about.
Also, I would not like our economy to be connected with the Euro, too many weak economies linked to it, wouldn't want the burden already borne by Germany and France in trying to constantly bail them out.

[TheDeeDon]

Yes I have seen the poster, is he racist? he very well may be despite his denials, only he can answer that question. My opinion of the poster is that it is abhorrent, to use mass refugees in that way is disgusting, however that is the work of UKIP and not the official leave campaign, in my belief immigration should be controlled the way it is in other countries as mention by a previous poster. War refugees, that is a separate matter altogether and nothing to do with whether or not we should leave the European market.
I did not agree with joining the common market, at the time I felt we were cutting out too many other markets, other countries we were dealing with at the time. My preference would be to deal with all markets without any rules coming from Brussels, I do not accept the rhetoric of doom being spouted by the remain team, no country is going to refuse to deal with us if we leave, they have got their own economies to think about.
Also, I would not like our economy to be connected with the Euro, too many weak economies linked to it, wouldn't want the burden already borne by Germany and France in trying to constantly bail them out.

Rochead - Your post above is one of the best I have read on here on this subject.

[Getintaethem]

Yes I have seen the poster, is he racist? he very well may be despite his denials, only he can answer that question. My opinion of the poster is that it is abhorrent, to use mass refugees in that way is disgusting, however that is the work of UKIP and not the official leave campaign, in my belief immigration should be controlled the way it is in other countries as mention by a previous poster. War refugees, that is a separate matter altogether and nothing to do with whether or not we should leave the European market.
I did not agree with joining the common market, at the time I felt we were cutting out too many other markets, other countries we were dealing with at the time. My preference would be to deal with all markets without any rules coming from Brussels, I do not accept the rhetoric of doom being spouted by the remain team, no country is going to refuse to deal with us if we leave, they have got their own economies to think about.
Also, I would not like our economy to be connected with the Euro, too many weak economies linked to it, wouldn't want the burden already borne by Germany and France in trying to constantly bail them out.

Great post. With regards to the rhetoric of doom you mention...there has been a lot of talk about all the "experts" stating that the economy would reduce if we exited the EU. Some of these experts also predicted that the economy would reduce if we did not take up the Euro (hmm), others like the IMF said that we would have mass unemployment given the reduced public spending by Osbourne (hmm)... so I thought I would take a look at the assumptions of these "experts".

There are some issues with the models used by these experts, however, it is not the models that are the major problem. It is the starting assumptions. As with all modelling, what you put in as the start (your assumptions) has a major impact on what you get out at the end. Looking at the assumptions these "independent" experts have done something rather interesting. They have assumed that the UK would choose to put protectionist tariffs against trade from all countries around the world, including the EU. The assumption was that the protectionist tariffs would be in line with the general tariffs that countries adopted prior to joining the EU.

In short the decision of the "experts" to assume that the UK instead of using Brexit as an opportunity to move to general free trade pursues general protectionism which in effect reduces the extent of free trade is important in obtaining its negative results for output.

My big issue with this is that tariffs are on the whole going down around the world. The EU would not put tariffs on our goods (it is against their own economies interests). In fact, if they did we could still run a non protectionist agenda. New Zealand implemented a global zero tariff policy in the 1980's.

If these models changed their original assumptions and instead did (as David Cameron said during the general election) that "Britain was open for business", we can look at a scenario where we do not introduce protectionism. In that scenario, instead of Brexit being bad for GDP, we get positive growth figures. (analysis performed by Prof. Patrick Minford). This analysis is based on WTO rules and no protectionism policies. Oh and by the way, if we went with a non protectionist policy prices of everything you buy would go down. Given that only 15% of companies actually sell stuff abroad this would be a huge boost to consumers and by definition have greatest relative impact for benefit for the poorest in our society.

[Brian Grantland]

Yes I have seen the poster, is he racist? he very well may be despite his denials, only he can answer that question. My opinion of the poster is that it is abhorrent, to use mass refugees in that way is disgusting, however that is the work of UKIP and not the official leave campaign, in my belief immigration should be controlled the way it is in other countries as mention by a previous poster. War refugees, that is a separate matter altogether and nothing to do with whether or not we should leave the European market.
I did not agree with joining the common market, at the time I felt we were cutting out too many other markets, other countries we were dealing with at the time. My preference would be to deal with all markets without any rules coming from Brussels, I do not accept the rhetoric of doom being spouted by the remain team, no country is going to refuse to deal with us if we leave, they have got their own economies to think about.
Also, I would not like our economy to be connected with the Euro, too many weak economies linked to it, wouldn't want the burden already borne by Germany and France in trying to constantly bail them out.

You've obviously given your position a lot of thought.

I think facts go against the majority of your points. But that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Many leave voters will be motivated by racism in their voting intentions.
Which raises a rather horrible prospect for a post-Brexit society.

[NEM83]

genuine question

have u seen the faces in this poster



do u think farage is a racist

i see young, fit, economic migrant faces in the poster - how about you?

[Buc]

i see young, fit, economic migrant faces in the poster - how about you?

I see desperate people

[Barnared]

Of course racism exists, however in this referendum anyone voting out are deemed to be doing so as an act of racism in many quartets.
There will be very many racists voting remain.

Aye, have to agree with that, it's just run of the mill English politics. I won't be bothering to vote so I don't give a phuk either way.

I think that a lot of folk planning to vote remain are sh!t scared of the immigration problem (cause it is that) in England too but are slightly more scared of Cameron and Osbornes doomsday scenarios.

[Aldo1983]

Agreed.

[LED]

I see Cameron's welfare package which he negotiated is only for 12 years. So these laws that he keeps going on about regarding the 4 year claiming benefits law etc have still to be passed my the EU council of ministers and when/if they are will be capped to 12 years from now.

It begs the question, why are Brussels waiting to after the referendum to ratify these laws, and if we stay what will replace them in 12 years?