o/t Does anyone seriously believe Corbyn is an anti-semite?

[nakedtruth]

Maybe the anti semitism furore is a bit of a sideshow when the bottom dollar is that a big chunk of the uk population doesn’t think JC is up to the task of leading the country and also that his potential chancellor would ruin us.

This current government is a busted flush but with JC being around for so long folks reckon he would be an even worse option.

[sickly_child]

In answer to the original question no I don't.

[monty_rhodes]

In answer to the original question no I don't.

Hi, sickly. You been away again? I don't think in the great scheme of things it matters much. Europe is moving to the right.

[sickly_child]

Not looking too smart, but hope springs eternal. I sent you a message on the ot ot thread.

[sickly_child]

currently experiencing a swarm of small earthquakes here about 4 in the last hour. not too bad but the house a shaking, a little unnerving.

[monty_rhodes]

currently experiencing a swarm of small earthquakes here about 4 in the last hour. not too bad but the house a shaking, a little unnerving.

I bet! I will look out for your message - nothing rude, I hope!

[KerrAvon]

How far back would I like you to go with your re-write off history? I guess I'd like you to acknowledge that for 200+ years before the start of Jews returning to the Palestine area as you described, it was a substantial majority Muslim state and that, for such huge territorial carve ups and subsequent occupations even of the land allocated to them post 1948, this historical story (omitted by yourself) is pretty fundamental in understanding Palestinian anger.

My re-write of history? If you disagree with my version of history then you could explain why, but please try to achieve a better understanding than you and the other Corbyn apologists have demonstrated on this thread. Frankly some of levels of ‘understanding’ on display have all the hallmarks of having come from a pamphlet handed out on the steps of the university union and from nowhere else. The people handing out such leaflets often have an agenda.

You disagree with my history starting with the Ottoman Empire and want me to go 200+ years before the start of Jews returning to the Palestine area as I described? If we go back 200 years from the middle of the 19th century – which is where I began - we get back to the middle of the 17th century, when the area was part of the Ottoman Empire... What were you trying to achieve with your suggestion?

There were large scale returns of Jews to the area several times over the last thousand years or so, usually in response to persecution in one part of Europe or another.

You demonstrate a lack of understanding of the Ottoman Empire. You ask what the religion of the ‘Ottoman people’ was. If you mean the citizens of the Ottoman Empire then they were from a range of religions (in much the same way that the British Empire had many Hindu and Muslim citizens in the sub-continent as well as Christians). The predominant religion was Muslim, but there were many Christian and Jewish citizens. As I have stated previously, the people who inhabited the region knowns as Palestine were predominately Muslim, but there were significant numbers of Christians and Jews. There are still many Christian Palestinians – although large numbers chose to settle in Israel - but their numbers are dwindling following the rise of Muslim fundamentalism.

The thing is that just about everything you post on the subject demonstrates that you just don’t get why the views that you clearly hold on Israel and which appear to tally with those of Corbyn and many of his acolytes can be seen as antisemitic. You are so set in your views that you just can’t see it. You have this simplistic ‘Palestinian good – Israel bad’ thing going on, which doesn’t even begin to accurately reflect the complexities of the situation. You refer to the creation of the state of Israel as a carve up, whilst WanChai thinks it was an act of apartheid by Atlee’s Labour government. You seem to be unable to recognise and take account of the interests of the Jews who lived in the Palestine region – around 650 000 by the end of WW2 – about third of the population - with more arriving every day.

Given that you don’t like what the UN did when it created Israel (and neither does Corbyn given that one of the caveats that he wanted adding to the Labour definition of antisemitism was that it was ok to refer to the creation of Israel as an act of racism), can you explain what your solution would have been to the large and growing Jewish population of the region? Would you have sunk the ships that were bringing the Jews to the area or would you have simply opened large camps into which they could be concentrated until you could come up with a final solution? You may not like those questions, but I’d really like to know your answers. If you are going to look at the world with your Corbynista blinkers on and criticise what was done, you should really have an idea of what you would have done. I think you’ll find it a bit more difficult than adopting the simplistic, starkly black and white and hopelessly naïve views that you appear to hold on the subject.

The issue of the large and growing Jewish population in Palestine at the end of the British mandate could not simply be made to go away by wishing. It was real and it was growing. The UN came up with a two state solution, but the Arabs in the surrounding countries rejected that and chose to declare war instead and, as is often the case, many people suffered as a consequnce. I don’t suppose you will be able to move from the Corbynista position and bring yourself to criticise the Arabs for that.

[KerrAvon]

No Kerr. The question should be why would you, when Corbyn explicitly says in the speech (I put it up for you on video, why dont you actually watch it?) that he is referring to the Zionists in the room at that speech that then protested, would you go on to suggest that he is referring to Zionists generally?? Pretend you're in court and you have those exact words to draw on, how would you allow an accusor to draw the same conclusions that you have?

So I ask again. For the third time. What words in the speech, and please provide direct quotes (I've given you the video) that show that Corbyn is talking about all UK zionists?

I watched the video long before you put it up, raging. I like to know what I am talking about before posting. I see no reason to draw the distinction that you want me to as. I also don't understand why you want me to. Are you saying that it is ok for him to talk in a discriminatory fashion about a, presumably small, group of Jews? Your are ok with that?

Clutch at straws and try to defend the indefensible all you want to, but I’m not going to help you with it.

Any thoughts upon why Corbyn can’t seem to bring himself to show support for the oppressed citizens of Venezuela and Cuba given that you say that he has historically ‘argued and stood on the side of the people that he considers to be oppressed’ ?

[KerrAvon]

The whole point of the Labour movement is to stand up for working people , fight exploitation and fight for a greater share of the spoils .

That under Corbyn is where the fight is , now people can point to this , that and whatever , he said this , he did that and met with whoever .

Fine but let's not get sidelined by where the real fight really lies today .

In my lifetime I've never encountered such a campaign against a Labour leader , my gut instinct tells me he's more than on to something and poweful self interested people don't care for it .

I could name many flaws within the conservative leadership past and present but that doesn't appear to grab the headlines as much , who exactly was in charge of the home office when the Windrush project started ? and that's only the tip of a very large iceberg .

A remarkable tactic is getting played out here , which isn't to say it couldn't have been handled better but it's a deflective policy from a party and associates that ain't that great themselves if the truth be told when it comes to racism and equality .


Why did a old leftie back bencher from Islington ever become leader of a real player in UK politics .

The reasons for that tell us where we are as a nation .

It aint working chaps for far too many people , it would be acceptable to see that addressed by the centre ground and we can all vote accordingly .

Me neither .

The Tories are reasonably centrist, animal, although not as much so as when Cameron was at the helm. Should May fall, I think you will see the party move to the right. If the Tories don't float your boat - and I don't think they do- the Lib Dems are centre left, but are still tainted in the minds of their natural support through their coalition with the Tories.

I think your only hope for another centrist option is if Momentum continue to behave as they are doing such as to persuade enough Labour MPs to give up the Labour whip and think about doing another SDP.

[KerrAvon]

Maybe the anti semitism furore is a bit of a sideshow when the bottom dollar is that a big chunk of the uk population doesn’t think JC is up to the task of leading the country and also that his potential chancellor would ruin us.

This current government is a busted flush but with JC being around for so long folks reckon he would be an even worse option.

I suspect that a lot of the population don't attach much weight to the antisemitism issue in itself, but the chaos and inability of Labour to effectively deal with it has harmed them.