O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[ramAnag]

So...returning to ‘sensible debate’ about the ‘Government’s Handling of Covid’...two or three things, some of which MA has touched on, may be of concern.

The Government’s track record during the pandemic as a whole has, imo, been very poor.

They have however seemingly performed surprisingly well over the vaccination process and long may that be the case.

Having said that...I know that people who received the vaccine last week are not due to receive their second dose until the third week of April eg two people who were vaccinated last Thursday (28th) are due to return for part two on the 16th April.
I know people in other parts of the World who are ‘dubious’ about the efficacy of this gap which doesn’t appear to be being replicated elsewhere.

Two of the over seventies who were vaccinated last week were alarmed to hear that the Germans (please, please let’s not have an outpouring of anti German venom) were expressing reservations about the suitability of the ‘Oxford’ vaccine for the over 70’s.

How close are we to guaranteeing that the second doses will be readily available, because unless they are we’re wasting our time.

Thoughts?

[swaledale]

So...returning to ‘sensible debate’ about the ‘Government’s Handling of Covid’...two or three things, some of which MA has touched on, may be of concern.

The Government’s track record during the pandemic as a whole has, imo, been very poor.

They have however seemingly performed surprisingly well over the vaccination process and long may that be the case.

Having said that...I know that people who received the vaccine last week are not due to receive their second dose until the third week of April eg two people who were vaccinated last Thursday (28th) are due to return for part two on the 16th April.
I know people in other parts of the World who are ‘dubious’ about the efficacy of this gap which doesn’t appear to be being replicated elsewhere.

Two of the over seventies who were vaccinated last week were alarmed to hear that the Germans (please, please let’s not have an outpouring of anti German venom) were expressing reservations about the suitability of the ‘Oxford’ vaccine for the over 70’s.

How close are we to guaranteeing that the second doses will be readily available, because unless they are we’re wasting our time.

Thoughts?

on the over 65's issue

A spokesman for AstraZeneca also denied the reports were valid.

“Reports that the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine efficacy is as low as 8% in adults over 65 years are completely incorrect. In the UK, the [Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation] supported use in this population and MHRA included this group without dose adjustment in the authorisation for emergency supply,” they said.

“In November, we published data in the Lancet demonstrating that older adults showed strong immune responses to the vaccine, with 100% of older adults generating spike-specific antibodies after the second dose.”

The german health ministry has also said the claim made by some german media is not correct.

On the supply side, the current delay is a temporary hiatus, all companies are ramping up supply and there is another "one shot" vaccine close to approval, so that will help enormously, so as we go forward supplies will increase.

The strategy of maximising the number of people who get at least some protection is sound in that there is no reason to suggest that the pfizer vaccine which shows high efficacy after 3 months, would suddenly become ineffective after that, there may be a gradual tailing off, but that won't be an issue if the second doe is given. Yes its a punt, but not a long shot (pun intended) and it should drive hospital admissions down.

The government has done well to get so many vaccinated, it just shows what can happen if you employ those people with the expertise to do it. We do need to get track and trace sorted as well, it will be needed for sometime after vaccinations have been completed in the UK, especially with regard to travellers entering the country from other countries.

[Andy_Faber]

on the over 65's issue

A spokesman for AstraZeneca also denied the reports were valid.

“Reports that the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine efficacy is as low as 8% in adults over 65 years are completely incorrect. In the UK, the [Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation] supported use in this population and MHRA included this group without dose adjustment in the authorisation for emergency supply,� they said.

“In November, we published data in the Lancet demonstrating that older adults showed strong immune responses to the vaccine, with 100% of older adults generating spike-specific antibodies after the second dose.�

The german health ministry has also said the claim made by some german media is not correct.

On the supply side, the current delay is a temporary hiatus, all companies are ramping up supply and there is another "one shot" vaccine close to approval, so that will help enormously, so as we go forward supplies will increase.

The strategy of maximising the number of people who get at least some protection is sound in that there is no reason to suggest that the pfizer vaccine which shows high efficacy after 3 months, would suddenly become ineffective after that, there may be a gradual tailing off, but that won't be an issue if the second doe is given. Yes its a punt, but not a long shot (pun intended) and it should drive hospital admissions down.

The government has done well to get so many vaccinated, it just shows what can happen if you employ those people with the expertise to do it. We do need to get track and trace sorted as well, it will be needed for sometime after vaccinations have been completed in the UK, especially with regard to travellers entering the country from other countries.

Agreed. Saved me writing a detailed response

[ramAnag]

on the over 65's issue

A spokesman for AstraZeneca also denied the reports were valid.

“Reports that the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine efficacy is as low as 8% in adults over 65 years are completely incorrect. In the UK, the [Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation] supported use in this population and MHRA included this group without dose adjustment in the authorisation for emergency supply,� they said.

“In November, we published data in the Lancet demonstrating that older adults showed strong immune responses to the vaccine, with 100% of older adults generating spike-specific antibodies after the second dose.�

The german health ministry has also said the claim made by some german media is not correct.

On the supply side, the current delay is a temporary hiatus, all companies are ramping up supply and there is another "one shot" vaccine close to approval, so that will help enormously, so as we go forward supplies will increase.

The strategy of maximising the number of people who get at least some protection is sound in that there is no reason to suggest that the pfizer vaccine which shows high efficacy after 3 months, would suddenly become ineffective after that, there may be a gradual tailing off, but that won't be an issue if the second doe is given. Yes its a punt, but not a long shot (pun intended) and it should drive hospital admissions down.

The government has done well to get so many vaccinated, it just shows what can happen if you employ those people with the expertise to do it. We do need to get track and trace sorted as well, it will be needed for sometime after vaccinations have been completed in the UK, especially with regard to travellers entering the country from other countries.

That’s all very encouraging and reassuring. Better explanation than many and I sincerely hope both you and AF are right.
Still some concern over the fact that the two people I spoke of who now have to wait until mid April (11 weeks) for their second dose had the AstraZeneca one not the Pfizer one.

[swaledale]

It seems AstraZeneca are more confident than Pfizer on this:

the CEO of AstraZeneca Pascal Soriot endorsed the three-month plan with regard to the Oxford vaccine. He said the first dose alone gave 100% protection against severe disease and hospitalisation. He said the second dose was only needed to give longer-term protection.

"I think the UK one-dose strategy is absolutely the right way to go, at least for our vaccine," he said.

[MadAmster]

The "one shot" vaccine on the horizon Swale mentioned is probably the Janssen one from Johnson and Johnson which was created here in te Netherlands. News outlets here were talking about it yasterday. Apparently it gives 66% protection. Better than nothing but is a vaccine that doesn't work in 1 out of every 3 doses the way to go?

[Andy_Faber]

The "one shot" vaccine on the horizon Swale mentioned is probably the Janssen one from Johnson and Johnson which was created here in te Netherlands. News outlets here were talking about it yasterday. Apparently it gives 66% protection. Better than nothing but is a vaccine that doesn't work in 1 out of every 3 doses the way to go?

I recall they also said it offered 100% protection against the need for a ventilator (and therefore also death) and if I'm right that's still a useful protection, we should also remember these things have got to be pumped out in MASSIVE volumes over the near/medium term and if that was all that was available in my region I'd be a lot happier than going without

[ramAnag]

Good to read such seemingly informed and positive contributions. Thank you.

[Ram59]

There is a great deal of debate, especially abroad, about the wisdom of leaving the second vaccine for longer than the 3 weeks trialled by the pharmaceutical companies. Our scientists who have recommended the 12 week gap have based their decision on all historical vaccines which have been trialled over different gaps and have found that generally a 12 week gap displays more efficiency.

The next question is 'why haven't the current vaccines been tested for 12 weeks'? The answer to that should be obvious, the time constraint in getting the vaccine into people's arms meant that they couldn't afford to wait an extra 9 weeks, before submitting their vaccines for approval. Just think, if that was the case, then no vaccines would have been approved yet, nevermind the millions of jabs in people's arms.

Regarding RA's understandable doubt about the availablilty of vaccines for second doses after the hysteria shown by the EU this week, we should be in a far better position by April. Pfizer say that their increased production will soon commence and they will more than catch up by the end of March. Also, we Brits who are prepared to wait our turn in the queue when we place our order late, should start receiving our Moderna supplies along with the Novovax made on Teeside in March. BY this time the Astra vaccine should have increased its production.

I would anticipate that by May the UK will have more doses available than can be given and that we will then start sending our excess doses to the third world, to help with the global effort.

[ramAnag]

Just to be clear, R59...I haven’t said a word about the EU, let alone any ‘hysteria’.

Perhaps interestingly, given yesterday’s angst over prioritising the vaccine, I heard this evening that my Manchester based sister in law and brother in law have today received their jabs despite being ‘only’ 63 and 66 respectively.
The reason? They’re both recognised as being at a higher degree of risk because they volunteer to work in a food bank.