OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Southern...how often have you heard recently, words to the effect of...'we have to wait to see what's involved in Brexit before we can judge'? I've heard them a lot and have to ask...htf have we - or a small proportion of us - made this monumental decision without apparently knowing what is involved? It's a nonsense and if exactly what is involved is still to be decided - which it undoubtedly is - then why shouldn't those of us who have been consistently opposed to Brexit continue to argue our point? It's not 'carrying a grudge' it's trying to minimise the damage which has already, imo, begun.

[southernram22]

without moving forwards now ramanag were finished as a democratic nation. caused by a split in our population caused by greed and politicians who have lost touch with the views deep views of the electorate. i have no or will never have any problem being part of a trading union with other european countries i will never vote to be a part of a united states of europe ruled by faceless bureacrats in brussels who are creaming of a good life interfering with our right to determine our way of life. if this is not correct then please ask all the people who gave there lives what they were fighting for because this is what democracy means the right to determine you own views . dont get me wrong we have enough bad politicians to cock it up without letting brussels help in my view the eu has become a bloated fat cat a gravy train for a few and the people of hundreds of towns cities across this country voted to say enough is enough we no longer want to be part of this current set up me included. now i understand yours and swales and others views but if we dont go ahead are you prepared for what lies ahead that is called anarchy and no one wants that. the lies given out by both sides we shocking badly thought up and the likes of johnson cameron osborne etc should be ashamed as should blair major brown haigh should give up . what the country needs is people to run it for the people not the rich few and there mates

[ramAnag]

I don't actually disagree with much of what you've said southern although I would question the extent to which the EU alone is responsible for the greedy fat cats and faceless bureaucrats. We seem quite capable of producing them without any help from Europe.

What does worry me is that the referendum was little more than some sort of collective knee jerk reaction to issues which were not entirely EU related. As I said earlier, many experts are, even now, still trying to identify exactly what is involved. You mentioned 'anarchy' and to be totally honest...a decision reached by a minority in a referendum where even those who are well informed are still struggling to fully understand all the details and implications of exactly what comes next seems pretty anarchic to me.

[Ram59]

After in excess of 1100 posts, has anybody on here been persuaded to change sides?

[ramAnag]

After in excess of 1100 posts, has anybody on here been persuaded to change sides?

Maybe most of the actual contributors are too entrenched to change. Tbf it has made me consider why some hold the views they do and how things must change, but I think more important than the 1100 posts are the 20,000 plus viewings which suggests it must at least have provided some food for thought.

Pity Angry 'stropped off'. Come back you cantankerous old git...I miss you.

[Andy_Faber]

After in excess of 1100 posts, has anybody on here been persuaded to change sides?

This discussion hasn't, but the general stance of the beaten remainers has made me want to dissociate myself from them. Anna Soubry on the radio this am is a prime example, she just won't let it go, and she as good as admitted that she basically wanted a rerun because she/they hadn't done a good enough job of selling remain. OK Anna, rearrange the Derby/QPR playoff final and I might consider it.

[macstheman]

Good one!! We no doubt would'nt score again and poor old Keogh would deflect a shot going 40 yards wide straight into the onion bag!!

[swaledale]

This discussion hasn't, but the general stance of the beaten remainers has made me want to dissociate myself from them. Anna Soubry on the radio this am is a prime example, she just won't let it go, and she as good as admitted that she basically wanted a rerun because she/they hadn't done a good enough job of selling remain. OK Anna, rearrange the Derby/QPR playoff final and I might consider it.

The general stance of the Remainers??? Thats a rather sweeping statement! What some politicians say and what other more informed people say about the advantages of remain are different.

What is telling for me is that most of the arguments for leave have been either untrue, wild assumptions about what might happen in the future or pure xenophobia, fear and distrust of foreigners. I had thought we'd developed as a country, but seems not and whats really funny is that it will be those who voted for leave who will be impacted negatively when we do.

[Andy_Faber]

The general stance of the Remainers??? Thats a rather sweeping statement!

That's me all over - broad brush statements, generalisations, unsubstantiable facts - now where's that form I had knocking around, 'Application to be a politician'

Seriously, I can confirm that the general stance of the remainers in the social groups where I've heard it discussed is a bit pathetic - namely:

Politicians. Get over yourselves and go do a deal for God's sake! Having commented on Anna Sourby yesterday it was good to See Imelda Mae put her and others back in their box by being very clear (OK at summary level) that Brexit means we are leaving the EU, and everything therefore is underpinned by that. I like her style at the mo.

Business seniors in soft industries. Hardly unexpected that they are gagging for the status quo to somehow re-emerge as IMO they are the most likely to be collateral damage if things do go wrong

Business leaders in value added industries. For the most part have decided to roll their sleeves up and get on with it, good for Warren East at R-R for instance.

My family and friends group. Totally in denial at the moment, and bear in mind some of those folk were already in denial about the Scottish independence vote so imagine their pain!

Facebook. My fb friends voted poss 90% leave, but of the 10%, a number are quite high profile in public life due to a hobby interest I have (think Billy Bragg level of profile) and my God are they whinging like buggery, in fact getting quite vitriolic about it

This forum. Jury's out, but as a Remain voter I for one am 100% for making the best of Brexit now

[Trickytreesreds]

The general stance of the Remainers??? Thats a rather sweeping statement! What some politicians say and what other more informed people say about the advantages of remain are different.

What is telling for me is that most of the arguments for leave have been either untrue, wild assumptions about what might happen in the future or pure xenophobia, fear and distrust of foreigners. I had thought we'd developed as a country, but seems not and whats really funny is that it will be those who voted for leave who will be impacted negatively when we do.

Swale, sorry I have been away again. But after reading this, may I just point one or two little things out.

You're clinging again, to xenophobic/racist stance for anyone questioning immigration. We're all scared of foreigners etc.

To have that stance, we would be insisting on a Trump Mexico wall, or a reverse of Hitlers Atlantic wall.
I have not seen one thread in here, that wants the draw bridge pulled and for us to live in a bubble because we're scared.

All the Brexiter's woted out, because of unbridled/uncontrolled immigration. An open door policy, in which anyone from within the EU can simply walk in. It costs all of us, in services/housing/education/Medical/job pressures(for the low paid) and many other reasons.
Certain parts of the country have had enough of seeing their communities changed and standards of living lowered.
Now I guess you're an educated man. Have a decent job/home/area of living. Pretty much as most politicians have. It doesn't hit/slap you in the mush on an everyday basis, as it does others.
So please, drop this labelling/badging stance that Gordon Brown was so famously caught out with, as soon as he thought the cameras and microphones were off.

That is the fear that folks had had enough of. Seeing their lives turned on their heads, not simply because Europe decided plonk themselves next door.
I would point out, that whilst you're putting down your fellow "Brits" for not developing. The countries involved here, Poland/Hungary/Romania etc, show far more isolationism and racism than you can dream of.
They are on a collision course with the EU for refusing to join in Merkels mad policy of adopting the middle east and Africa,
The far right is also making itself known, in greater numbers.
Yet the hypocrisy of these nations, who have flooded most of Europe with migrants, is quite frankly laughable.
Basically, "what's your is mine and what's mine is my own".

So if we are so bad, try pointing out the EU farce, of all this.
I'm sure most folks in this thread, do not want an end to immigration. They want control- in numbers/quality/fairness.
That is all and you may not agree to that, but the voting said more than your camp did.

(PS still not the reason I voted out, it was the EUSSR deciding which way this county was going for me) But you knew that.