OT - what the hell is going on!

[MadAmster]

BBC lunchtime news.

13 year old stabbed in his home, in Brum I believe. Two teeenage boys up in court charged with murder.

80 year old man attacked in Braunstone, Leics whilst walking his dog in a park. His injuries were so severe that he was rushed to the major trauma centre at Queen's Hospital in Notts. He died from his injuries. Two girls and a boy, all aged 12 and a boy and a girl both aged 14 have been arrested and charged with murder.

Two dead. Seven young kids whose lives have been ruined. Feasibly a far from positive knock on effect on parent(s) and sibling(s) of the kids, both the suspects and the deceased boy and on the family of the 80 year old.

Strangely enough, the police have reported themselves to the IOPC as they "had had dealings with the man". Was he a serial complainer who wasn't taken seriously? Has he been attacked by kids before and not enough was done?

I really do despair at what's going on. Are kids learning the difference between right and wrong?

[SithHappens]

It's appallingly.

What's the answer?

[Trickytreesreds]

It starts at home, then school, then carries on into adulthood.

Lack of morals/ discipline/ consequences.
We are all old enough in here, to know right from wrong from an early age.
Parents don't care now, bother bringing up their kids correctly.
Schools have fallen through the floor control wise, the kids know there is little that can be done to them
By adulthood, they aren't scared/bothered, as consequences are genuinely weak and laughable.

You can't just blame the old poverty trap and social gaps either. Thats bollox as 50 years ago, most kids had next to nothing, or an easy life.
No one bats an eyelid now, with theft/gangs/ drugs/ violence/Stabbings etc
The soft liberal attitudes have come home to roost.

I'll also throw in the decline of Christian values in there as well. Assemblies, teaching, and taking part in group activites that promoted moral compasses.
Now in our "multi faith" mix, they just don't bother anymore.

[Geoff Parkstone]

God help us if any of the kids are Moslem or recent immigrants. The reactive rioters could be out in force in the north again.

[Geoff Parkstone]

But back to the point, there is a lack of parental discipline here plus a sense of entitlement to do as the please from Gen whatever 12 year olds are.

In Surrey the carrying of knives in secondary schools is becoming commonplace, even as young as 12. And this is like a stone rolling downhill as if one does, the next one does etc. not sure how this one ends.

It's a combination of fault in schools and at home where discipline and respect for others is collapsing. Like TTR I don't see an obvious link to poverty, as overall standards of living continue to rise. More likely a link to boredom and (here I'm going to sound a real curmudgeon) video gaming where violence is trivialized and death just a "life event" followed by respawning. In real life it doesn't work that way but I'm not sure these ferals altogether understand this.

Solution? Hard to see beyond extermination - which ECHR may have a problem with. Castration of parents might help as this is a major source of problem. Not fit to breed if this is the outcome

[SithHappens]

It starts at home, then school, then carries on into adulthood.

Lack of morals/ discipline/ consequences.
We are all old enough in here, to know right from wrong from an early age.
Parents don't care now, bother bringing up their kids correctly.
Schools have fallen through the floor control wise, the kids know there is little that can be done to them
By adulthood, they aren't scared/bothered, as consequences are genuinely weak and laughable.

You can't just blame the old poverty trap and social gaps either. Thats bollox as 50 years ago, most kids had next to nothing, or an easy life.
No one bats an eyelid now, with theft/gangs/ drugs/ violence/Stabbings etc
The soft liberal attitudes have come home to roost.

I'll also throw in the decline of Christian values in there as well. Assemblies, teaching, and taking part in group activites that promoted moral compasses.
Now in our "multi faith" mix, they just don't bother anymore.

When I was at school if I got in trouble I got in trouble again at home. How often now do schools dare discipline bad behaviour for fear of parents going mad at them for daring to discipline their precious kids?

I don't know, maybe not as much as you hear but I know of a few anecdotal stories where parents have flown into a rage because their kids come home telling them they have been *******ed.

It starts at home certainly, maybe parents of minors committing offences should also be charged?

[ramAnag]

When I was at school if I got in trouble I got in trouble again at home. How often now do schools dare discipline bad behaviour for fear of parents going mad at them for daring to discipline their precious kids?

I don't know, maybe not as much as you hear but I know of a few anecdotal stories where parents have flown into a rage because their kids come home telling them they have been *******ed.

It starts at home certainly, maybe parents of minors committing offences should also be charged?

100% agree with that comment, Sith. Especially the one about school days. I would never have told my parents that I’d been in trouble at school for fear of another slap!

Also think we have to keep a sense of perspective. It sounds dreadful, especially from afar, and indeed such incidents are, but they remain relatively rare and are, sadly, far from unprecedented. Remember Jamie Bulger, as just one particularly sad but memorable example from over 30 years ago.

As for the predictable waffle from you know who about the ‘decline in Christian values’ and it being attributable to the ‘multi faith mix’. Absolute garbage, yet more sh1t stirring and I’m sure there were wonderful examples of parenting on display during the rioting of a few weeks ago.

P.S. Can’t help but agree with GP about the trivialisation/normalisation of violence in some video games and, unfortunately, that some people are simply not fit to reproduce. No idea what you do about the latter though.

[Trickytreesreds]

When I was at school if I got in trouble I got in trouble again at home. How often now do schools dare discipline bad behaviour for fear of parents going mad at them for daring to discipline their precious kids?

I don't know, maybe not as much as you hear but I know of a few anecdotal stories where parents have flown into a rage because their kids come home telling them they have been *******ed.

It starts at home certainly, maybe parents of minors committing offences should also be charged?

Yes sith indeed.
Yes as children, you got up to mischief, but by heck did you know about it if caught.
You always knew when you'd gone too far. From calling the miserable old bat down the road, or scrumping the vicars garden.
Parents knew you had to be punished, and were actually quite angry and embarrassed to have to do so.
But in no way, were our crimes in sync with todays nut jobs.
Fights were fists and even picking up a stick was frowned on. Knives today are as common as the fist fight.
Never hit a girl, cheek your elders, steal from shops.
School was a new level. Discipline ranged from detention if you was lucky, to the old 12 of the best over the ass.
Now they put them in special out classes, to seperate them from the main stream. Lump the plebs together, who just get worse.
Discipline today is pathetic across the board.
type a nasty word on social media though and someones hurt feelings brings plod knocking your door down

[Trickytreesreds]

100% agree with that comment, Sith. Especially the one about school days. I would never have told my parents that I’d been in trouble at school for fear of another slap!

Also think we have to keep a sense of perspective. It sounds dreadful, especially from afar, and indeed such incidents are, but they remain relatively rare and are, sadly, far from unprecedented. Remember Jamie Bulger, as just one particularly sad but memorable example from over 30 years ago.

As for the predictable waffle from you know who about the ‘decline in Christian values’ and it being attributable to the ‘multi faith mix’. Absolute garbage, yet more sh1t stirring and I’m sure there were wonderful examples of parenting on display during the rioting of a few weeks ago.

P.S. Can’t help but agree with GP about the trivialisation/normalisation of violence in some video games and, unfortunately, that some people are simply not fit to reproduce. No idea what you do about the latter though.

There you go again. No it isn't garbage.
Because there are many hymn sheets to be singing off now religion wise. Instead of one size fits all, they don't bother pushing it anymore.
Too much hassle and too many pit falls.
National pride has been eroded away and the young today have been taught to be embarrassed by our history, so have less respect. That transfers to anti social/criminal behaviour
read this-
The National Centre for Social Research’s (NatCen) latest chapter in their report on “British social attitudes” – which draws upon a survey comprising more than 5,500 interviews with a random sample of UK adults – found just under two-thirds of people (64 per cent) are proud of Britain’s history, compared to 86 per cent back in 2013.

Only seven per cent in 2023 disagree or strongly disagree that "there are some things about Britain today that make me feel ashamed", as opposed to 10 per cent in 1995.

Expand article logo Continue reading
It also revealed that those who see themselves as having a “civic” understanding of national identity (that is, that someone becomes a member of a country by upholding shared values or showing respect to political institutions) are less likely to be proud of Britain’s past than those with an “ethnic” understanding of national identity (a focus on birth and ancestry).

However, NatCen also reports that both the percentage of people who consider it important that a British person is born in Britain, and who believe it’s important a person has British ancestry, have decreased – to 55 per cent and 39 per cent respectively.

[ramAnag]

There you go again. No it isn't garbage.
Because there are many hymn sheets to be singing off now religion wise. Instead of one size fits all, they don't bother pushing it anymore.
Too much hassle and too many pit falls.
National pride has been eroded away and the young today have been taught to be embarrassed by our history, so have less respect. That transfers to anti social/criminal behaviour
read this-
The National Centre for Social Research’s (NatCen) latest chapter in their report on “British social attitudes” – which draws upon a survey comprising more than 5,500 interviews with a random sample of UK adults – found just under two-thirds of people (64 per cent) are proud of Britain’s history, compared to 86 per cent back in 2013.

Only seven per cent in 2023 disagree or strongly disagree that "there are some things about Britain today that make me feel ashamed", as opposed to 10 per cent in 1995.

Expand article logo Continue reading
It also revealed that those who see themselves as having a “civic” understanding of national identity (that is, that someone becomes a member of a country by upholding shared values or showing respect to political institutions) are less likely to be proud of Britain’s past than those with an “ethnic” understanding of national identity (a focus on birth and ancestry).

However, NatCen also reports that both the percentage of people who consider it important that a British person is born in Britain, and who believe it’s important a person has British ancestry, have decreased – to 55 per cent and 39 per cent respectively.

Oh c’mon Tricky, when was the last time your views were impacted upon by any religion? You come across as just about the least charitable and ‘Christian’ person I’ve encountered.

‘National pride has been eroded away’, well yes I can agree with that…by dishonest and corrupt politicians, an utterly deceitful Prime Minister, the behaviour of football fans at a showcase European final, our dreadful (compared with elsewhere) roads, the behaviour of certain Brits abroad, the collapse of the NHS, the state of our public buildings, racist rioters etc, and if young people are ‘embarrassed by our history, so have less respect’, so be it. There is much to be proud of about being British but unfortunately the truth is there are things we have done wrong and should be ashamed of and if people are more aware and more questioning nowadays, how is that a bad thing?

It also has little, if anything, to do with the tragedies MA was speaking of.