Taking The Knee

[Ram59]

Prefer ‘enlightened’ to ‘Liberal minded’, Ram...but, just out of interest, if you’re going to describe those of us who support the original aims of BLM in that way, what does that make those of you who oppose the BLM aims relating to equality and justice?

It’s all well and good to suggest it should be ALM rather than BLM...but you are, imo, rather missing the point.
The BLM movement was formed in 2013 following a number of incidents relating to the deaths or mistreatment of a number of people in the USA who all happened to be black.
There are far too many examples of institutionalised racism in the States too mention, but let’s take into account, as a background, the examples of the KKK, the Rosa Parks incident from the mid fifties and the assassination of Martin Luther King in 1968.
Let’s also consider the example of South Africa where, despite the largely cosmetic overthrowing of Apartheid, we all know that the majority of those living in poverty also just happen to be black.
In addition let us also address the situation which I raised earlier, and which went conveniently uncommented upon, where we find - in both the UK and the USA - that there is a disproportionate lack of black individuals amongst leading politicians, educationalists, industrialists and policy makers but equally a disproportionate surfeit amongst those living in poor areas, doing poorly paid jobs or in prison. Why do you think that might be?

Moving on to the question of statues...mention has already been made of how Savile’s statue and grave were removed once his wrongdoing was exposed. Perhaps more appropriately, mention of General Haig has gone uncommented on. Here was a man hailed as a war hero by many, until 2009 when it finally registered that he had been responsible for the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands of (largely white admittedly) troops at which point his statue was surreptitiously moved from its pedestal at Edinburgh castle and placed into a more ‘protective’ museum environment.

So, you see, the precedent for the removal of statues in this country has been set and I find it difficult to understand how an otherwise intelligent contributor such as yourself can seek to justify keeping such statues as the one to Edward Colston on the basis that he acted as a benefactor in Bristol as if it somehow outweighs the mistreatment of 84,000 and deaths of 20,000 Africans.

Statues are things to be looked up to and reserved for those who are worthy of our respect. As with Savile and Haig we may not have known about their wrongdoings at the time they were erected, but we do now and that is why...imo...they should be removed.

Finally, I agree of course that All Lives Matter, but I hope you will recognise from this post that the BLM movement has been born out of the specific treatment of black people from Rosa Parks in the US in 1955 to black footballers in Italy in the here and now. That is why Black Lives Matter...or perhaps that’s just my ‘Liberal minded’ self ‘jumping on the bandwagon’.

The thing is RA, you're supporting the BLM of 2020 not 2013, many groups are set up with reasonable aims, but these aims develop into something more extreme as time goes on. Early Nazism had no problems with the Jews, but with other skin colours and early followers would have been horrified at the thought of the concentration camps for Jews. Quite a few right wing groups start off just being patriotic but get more sinister as time goes by.

Unfortunately, the slave traders were doing nothing illegal at one time, just like you or I are not doing something illegal today, but which in 200 years time, may seem to be horrendous. Saville though, for all his good work, was breaking the law that existed at the time and so a comparison isn't relevant.

[ramAnag]

In summary, the problem I see, through being in or around the bubble, NOT through blind prejudice, is lack of male role models/mentors, mainly due to absentee fathers, for black children. I wrote a long justification for this assertion by pm but banana fingers applied and I lost it

I honestly don’t understand why you had reservations about writing that.
I’m not sure what the statistics would suggest but, I agree, absentee fathers represent a problem...although not as much of a problem, in my experience, as abusive fathers.
On the other hand there are plenty of ‘absentee white fathers’ and I simply don’t know how the statistics stack up...neither do I see it as anything other than a possible contributory factor to the situation I have described.
As regards the Indian families that GP refers to...I would agree that - broadly speaking and only based on my experience - Indian families tend to be more aspirational than either their black, Pakistani or ‘under class’ white counterparts.
Why that should be - if indeed it is true - may be a bigger part of the problem.

[ramAnag]

The thing is RA, you're supporting the BLM of 2020 not 2013, many groups are set up with reasonable aims, but these aims develop into something more extreme as time goes on. Early Nazism had no problems with the Jews, but with other skin colours and early followers would have been horrified at the thought of the concentration camps for Jews. Quite a few right wing groups start off just being patriotic but get more sinister as time goes by.

Unfortunately, the slave traders were doing nothing illegal at one time, just like you or I are not doing something illegal today, but which in 200 years time, may seem to be horrendous. Saville though, for all his good work, was breaking the law that existed at the time and so a comparison isn't relevant.

I’m not supporting the BLM of 2020 rather than 2013, Ram and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve disassociated myself from any of their suggested aims regarding the police, capitalism or western values. My support for the BLM of whatever ‘vintage’ is confined to the justice and equality aspect for black people, so please stop trying to beat me with that particular stick.

You set great store by the legality of behaviour but my argument is much more concerned with morality which, imo, is much more important.
There are, of course, things we have all done that we might later be ashamed of, but I can assure you that there is nothing I am doing now that will be deemed ‘horrendous’ in 200 years time.

On the basis that Hitler and the Nazis made and upheld the laws in Germany in the thirties and forties I don’t suppose what they were doing was technically ‘illegal’ but everyone knew it was immoral and wrong. Likewise, at the time that Colston was transporting slaves in inhumane conditions which led to the deaths of so many there were plenty of abolitionists pointing out the error/immorality of the slave traders’ ways and eventually bringing an end to the practice. He could hardly claim ignorance but put profit before human decency.

Some things...cock fighting, bear baiting, fox hunting, sending children up chimneys, abusing women, and enslaving people...are just wrong, regardless of time and legality imo, and I don’t believe there is a place in the 21st Century for monuments to those who perpetrated such activities.

[Trickytreesreds]

It has been mentioned on here a few times, about the high percentage of Ethnics, inside.
BLM seem to believe that police victimisation has put them there.
I speak from experiance here, most of it is personal behaviour and greed.

Where violence is concerned, mostly gang related and the inability to walk away from confrontation without getting violent.
In effect, you dissing me blud? Where does that start? Upbringing/neighbourhoods/personal respect?

Drugs I'm afraid are fast. easy track to wealth. Unfortunately they attract the above.

I'll give you one instance, where my work shops got a visit from an MP.
He was shown the work being done and the fact basic engineering skiils had to be used to achieve it.
The plan was always about rehabilitation and hopefully they will upon release get a job that they can do.
2 of them very close to us started laughing.
Later I asked them why?
He asked me if I was serious about thinking that?
Of course I said.
Again he laughed and said you are deluded. See that officer over there. I can earn more in a week than he earns in a year.
Why would I want to work like that for a living?

So ultimately, what would life be like with a disbanded police force, with that mentality BLM desire?

Scary.

[Geoff Parkstone]

May I ask why your support "is confined to the justice and equality aspect for black people" as opposed to lack of opportunities for white underclasses, inequalities for Filipino, Bangladeshi, Indian etc etc foreign workers particularly in the middle east but really globally, or moslem often refugee) workers in Europe.

All of those groups are collectively less well to do, and are quite probably equly persecuted by the police in whichever jurisdiction they live in.

So why focus on one group, admittedly a vocal group, but one who predominantly have issues with the US police system. Yes, black populations across the world have jumped on the bandwagon, and maybe for good cause (although maybe not in some cases where looting seems to be a passing benefit).

I'm sure it's not a case of you jumping on the same bandwagon, and becoming snowflake trendy or woke or whatever new expression exists for such things? But why are you "confined to the black cause"

Part of me wonders, if someone could waft away all the injustice with a magic wand, what excuse for underperformance would then be found if the racist excuse was not available

[ramAnag]

May I ask why your support "is confined to the justice and equality aspect for black people" as opposed to lack of opportunities for white underclasses, inequalities for Filipino, Bangladeshi, Indian etc etc foreign workers particularly in the middle east but really globally, or moslem often refugee) workers in Europe.

All of those groups are collectively less well to do, and are quite probably equly persecuted by the police in whichever jurisdiction they live in.

So why focus on one group, admittedly a vocal group, but one who predominantly have issues with the US police system. Yes, black populations across the world have jumped on the bandwagon, and maybe for good cause (although maybe not in some cases where looting seems to be a passing benefit).

I'm sure it's not a case of you jumping on the same bandwagon, and becoming snowflake trendy or woke or whatever new expression exists for such things? But why are you "confined to the black cause"

Part of me wonders, if someone could waft away all the injustice with a magic wand, what excuse for underperformance would then be found if the racist excuse was not available

I’m not ‘confined to the black cause’. You know as well as I do the origins of the BLM movement. Likewise, in the ‘70/80’s I was an active member of the Anti Apartheid movement...that too showed support for the ‘black population’ (of SA) but not, in my case, to the exclusion of other groups.

I believe you are opposed to fox hunting...I’d be very surprised if that activity somehow precluded your opposition to badger baiting or dog fighting.

Why is there this talk of ‘jumping on a bandwagon’ anyway? I’m a (late) middle aged, middle class white man...what’s meant to be in it for me? This is a forum, a place to exchange views and opinions. What I am doing used to be called ‘nailing one’s colours to the mast’. Is there something so wrong about that?

[Geoff Parkstone]

My observation was that you appeared to be restricted in your comments to the current trendy cause. Im glad that you are more even handed in your largesse! Its as it ever is, the campaign that shouts the loudest gets the most support.

I abhor fox hunting, but, perversely, I also hate foxes. They are a vermin that need control, as many of my mum's and uncle's slaughtered flocks of hens will testify They kill for fun, not to eat, as demonstrated by 90% of the carcasses being untouched. However a bunch of contestants for upper class twits of the year dressed in pink chasing them down as a so called "Sport" - no thanks. Do it humanely or not at all.

I dont have exactly the same perspective on badger baiting and dog fighting or for that matter hare coursing. I agree with these being banned too as its a cruel sport, often for betting and human enjoyment. There is no pest control reasons that I know of to support this activity (unless you still think badgers cause TB in milking cows, or the dogs are sheep worriers)

[ramAnag]

My observation was that you appeared to be restricted in your comments to the current trendy cause. Im glad that you are more even handed in your largesse! Its as it ever is, the campaign that shouts the loudest gets the most support.

I abhor fox hunting, but, perversely, I also hate foxes. They are a vermin that need control, as many of my mum's and uncle's slaughtered flocks of hens will testify They kill for fun, not to eat, as demonstrated by 90% of the carcasses being untouched. However a bunch of contestants for upper class twits of the year dressed in pink chasing them down as a so called "Sport" - no thanks. Do it humanely or not at all.

I dont have exactly the same perspective on badger baiting and dog fighting or for that matter hare coursing. I agree with these being banned too as its a cruel sport, often for betting and human enjoyment. There is no pest control reasons that I know of to support this activity (unless you still think badgers cause TB in milking cows, or the dogs are sheep worriers)

It’s really not being ‘trendy’, GP. I just abhor racism and bullying, always have and always will.
You may well have a point about those that ‘shout the loudest’ but God knows...black folk in the U.S. - where this all began - have had plenty to shout about.

Agree with your sentiments on cruelty...would, like you, hesitate to call any of them ‘sports’.

[Ram59]

You set great store by the legality of behaviour but my argument is much more concerned with morality which, imo, is much more important.
There are, of course, things we have all done that we might later be ashamed of, but I can assure you that there is nothing I am doing now that will be deemed ‘horrendous’ in 200 years time.


My point is RA, 200 years ago, a majority of people couldn't see anything wrong with slavery.

Fast forward to today, I love a steak and chips or a sunday roast, I keep a dog for a pet, take him for walks on a lead. There are already a significant number of vegans who would argue against my eating habits and probably animal protection activists who think that its wrong to not allow my dog to run free. Most people could not invisage a time when either of these activities would be considered obscene, but who knows?

In 200 years time, my behaviour could be classed almost as a type of cannabalism and false imprisonment. 200 years ago African natives were treated as non humans through ignorance, even lower classes in 'civilised' countries were treated in humanely.

Watch out Bill Gates, all those good causes that you're helping could be overshadowed by you loving a good steak or beefburger.

[AdiSalisbury]

Foxes are not, and never have been categorised as vermin by DEFRA. Unfortunately we persecute wildlife for nothing more than trying to survive. Id like to think that future generations would be a bit more tolerant of nature, but I doubt it.

And you're right Ram59, there is cruelty in the pet trade, from stealing wild animals, to putting rabbits in cages at the bottom of the garden, currently accepted as the norm.