SAS on trial

[DaveP67 is back!]

What are we coming too in this country! Absolute disgrace that the bravest of the brave are now being hauled over the coals and in public for doing their job and ridding the planet of evil scum.

[baggiematt]

What do you mean? It's a case where they are alleged of unlawful killings.

Reports include 54 suspicious kills.

[Omegstrat6]

I understand that it is very difficult to apply the ethics of normal civilian life to the realities of a battlefield and the rules of engagement in Afghanistan were as frustrating as they have ever been. The fighting against insurgents is particularly difficult as they don't wear uniforms to identify themselves and can more easily masquerade as ordinary civilians once they have stashed their weapons. Nonetheless, no one is above the law and that includes Special Forces.

Unpalatable as It may be, it is not just the bad guys who are capable of war crimes. I know that such groups are tasked with so called "black ops" that are technically illegal but we are talking about the possible killing of innocent civilians here. Surely an investigation is warranted at least? If these victims are found not to be "innocent" and those accused found to have had reasonable probable cause for their actions given the situation then I'm sure they will be exonerated. Had the same accusations had been levelled at Russian special forces I'm sure people would be more inclined to support investigations.

[DaveP67 is back!]

What do you mean? It's a case where they are alleged of unlawful killings.

Reports include 54 suspicious kills.

Someone had to do the dirty jobs, none of those who were killed were innocent school girls, the taliban are vermin and should be treated as such.

[mickd1961]

Someone had to do the dirty jobs, none of those who were killed were innocent school girls, the taliban are vermin and should be treated as such.

We expect the likes of the SAS to take on terrible risk and do the horrible and dirty stuff so that we can lead a simple life and in many cases, we leave these lads with terrible mental baggage to carry for life.

Many special forces operatives die early from alcohol and drug addiction and from suicide.

This is all okay until the time when those with a gentile life, protected by these types, decides to start digging for dirt.

I’m waiting for the day our PM feels the necessity to apologise to Germany for having the audacity to stand up to them in two World Wars.

I foresee a time, not too far ahead, where our kids and grandchildren will no longer be taught about either of the World Wars and if either are mentioned, our “error and deep disgrace” at having participated will be propagated.

History is being rewritten or cancelled right before our very eyes, those of 20 and under now only have a relative few of us left to talk to them about what our grandparents and great grandparents went through.

I’m dreading conversations with my 6 year old grandchildren 5 or 6 years from now, I think it’s going to be difficult to navigate all the guff they get forced down their throats these days.

Having said that, I do admire my grandson Leo who’s only 6 later this month.

He goes to a school that used to be a Catholic school and still strongly pushes religion.

He told his mum a couple of weeks ago that they’d been talking about God and how God had created everything……he said he was worried at school because he didn’t believe this, he thought it was unlikely one person could do all this stuff.

He’s a bright and inquisitive kid, very thoughtful, old beyond his years.

His mum asked him why he thought in this way ( she’s not religious but wants him to make up his own mind and doesn’t go against the philosophy of the school )

He told her about a discussion I’d had with him about space and rockets which had lead me into telling him about The Big Bang theory.

I had no idea he was balancing this in his own head against the God theory, I’m just fascinated by space and enjoyed showing him YouTube clips about Big Bang and space flights.

He said that he thought The Big Bang was far more realistic! 😎🤣

He had a stellar school report today so maybe there is a chink of light and hope with some youngsters.

But……I’d hate to see him fighting for his country and then having to deal with the vitriol many want to pour on our troops at a later date.

[Omegstrat6]

I agree with the sentiment regarding the treatment of certain returning military personnel that can happen (normally from overseas conflicts that factions of the public might view as unpopular or unwarranted) but the fact remains that a small minority of soldiers do commit war crimes. The obvious example of both is Vietnam where young returning troops having witnessed terrible things were treated despicably by anti war factions. These men and women were merely pawns in the game and did not deserve the vitriol that should have been directed at the politicians and commanders responsible. But were the actions at My Lai by US troops then ok because the VC also committed war crimes?

British forces also have a history of having committed unjustifiable acts whether that be the Amritsar Massacre, the reaction against the Mao Mao uprising or Bloody Sunday. Were these acceptable? Is it right to turn a blind eye to them?

Our armed services deserve our support. Yes, it is their decision to join but they do indeed put their lives on the line for what they (mostly ?) believe to be in the interests of the country, though, of course, they do not have any say in who or where they fight. By nature, Special Forces work outside normal frameworks and I don't doubt that there is truth in the normal justification of them doing the "dirty" work to keep the rest of us safe but they must still be held accountable and be able to justify their actions. Or do people think that they should e able to act with complete impunity?

[WBA1955]

We expect the likes of the SAS to take on terrible risk and do the horrible and dirty stuff so that we can lead a simple life and in many cases, we leave these lads with terrible mental baggage to carry for life.

Many special forces operatives die early from alcohol and drug addiction and from suicide.

This is all okay until the time when those with a gentile life, protected by these types, decides to start digging for dirt.

I’m waiting for the day our PM feels the necessity to apologise to Germany for having the audacity to stand up to them in two World Wars.

I foresee a time, not too far ahead, where our kids and grandchildren will no longer be taught about either of the World Wars and if either are mentioned, our “error and deep disgrace” at having participated will be propagated.

History is being rewritten or cancelled right before our very eyes, those of 20 and under now only have a relative few of us left to talk to them about what our grandparents and great grandparents went through.

I’m dreading conversations with my 6 year old grandchildren 5 or 6 years from now, I think it’s going to be difficult to navigate all the guff they get forced down their throats these days.

Having said that, I do admire my grandson Leo who’s only 6 later this month.

He goes to a school that used to be a Catholic school and still strongly pushes religion.

He told his mum a couple of weeks ago that they’d been talking about God and how God had created everything……he said he was worried at school because he didn’t believe this, he thought it was unlikely one person could do all this stuff.

He’s a bright and inquisitive kid, very thoughtful, old beyond his years.

His mum asked him why he thought in this way ( she’s not religious but wants him to make up his own mind and doesn’t go against the philosophy of the school )

He told her about a discussion I’d had with him about space and rockets which had lead me into telling him about The Big Bang theory.

I had no idea he was balancing this in his own head against the God theory, I’m just fascinated by space and enjoyed showing him YouTube clips about Big Bang and space flights.

He said that he thought The Big Bang was far more realistic! 😎🤣

He had a stellar school report today so maybe there is a chink of light and hope with some youngsters.

But……I’d hate to see him fighting for his country and then having to deal with the vitriol many want to pour on our troops at a later date.

Bomber Command had more losses in their overhaul personnel than any other branch of our armed forces. Most of the crews were young men in their early twenties. They flew every night knowing that it might be the last flight they made. The stress must have been unbearable. But they were treated like war criminals and lepers after the war and only recently given the credit they deserve.
I wonder if Germany would have apologised for London, Coventry, Birmingham, Liverpool, Plymouth and many other towns they brought death and destruction to on such a large scale?
"The Germans started this war with the childish notion that they were going to bomb everyone and no-one was going to bomb them. They have sown the wind, they shall reap the whirlwind." - Arthur Harris.

[Omegstrat6]

Bomber Command had more losses in their overhaul personnel than any other branch of our armed forces. Most of the crews were young men in their early twenties. They flew every night knowing that it might be the last flight they made. The stress must have been unbearable. But they were treated like war criminals and lepers after the war and only recently given the credit they deserve.
I wonder if Germany would have apologised for London, Coventry, Birmingham, Liverpool, Plymouth and many other towns they brought death and destruction to on such a large scale?
"The Germans started this war with the childish notion that they were going to bomb everyone and no-one was going to bomb them. They have sown the wind, they shall reap the whirlwind." - Arthur Harris.

Agree with a lot of that but the Dresden raid especially remains questionable. Even the aircrew themselves had qualms about it. Certainly thousands of civilians died horrific deaths in the subsequent fire storm and the impact on any military targets is now seen as being very limited and the idea that such a ferocious attack would hasten the end of the war also seems flawed. All is fair in love and war? Reap what you sow? The normal rules cannot apply in war -but surely a line over what is acceptable/justifiable and what is not should still be made? In this case, however, any "guilt" (if there should be any) should lie with Harris and those who authorized it, certainly not the aircrew whose bravery I have nothing but respect for.

[On Balance]

Agree with a lot of that but the Dresden raid especially remains questionable. Even the aircrew themselves had qualms about it. Certainly thousands of civilians died horrific deaths in the subsequent fire storm and the impact on any military targets is now seen as being very limited and the idea that such a ferocious attack would hasten the end of the war also seems flawed. All is fair in love and war? Reap what you sow? The normal rules cannot apply in war -but surely a line over what is acceptable/justifiable and what is not should still be made? In this case, however, any "guilt" (if there should be any) should lie with Harris and those who authorized it, certainly not the aircrew whose bravery I have nothing but respect for.

We must continue to support our military personnel. That said they are trained to kill but there must be a line between a lawful kill and an unlawful one. If that line is crossed then it is right and proper that any war crime is investigated.

The issue with the Dresden bombings is that the rules back in the period of WWII were not as they are today (I would suspect) Civilian casualties will always be repulsive by nature of the fact they are not part of the war. However, I would imagine it would be difficult to avoid if the enemy use them to put munitions and barrack close by to ensure a strategic military advantage.

If the rules were different then one must take into account what rules were in place at that given time. We should not use todays rules of engagement to decide whether what happened twenty, thirty or a hundred years ago was wrong.

[Omegstrat6]

I agree that any historical events and behaviour can only be understood in the context of the time but still think that it is valid to question these from a modern perspective as to whether were think them right or wrong. The historical,/cultural contexts are then a kind of mitigating circumstance when making such judgements (and the benefit of hindsight also helps of course!&#128513 For example, in the context of the time, and for certain people, the Atlantic Slave trade was seen as perfectly fine and whilst that helps us understand some of the reasons behind why it happened it surely doesn't mean that it is right? Shouldn't the point be that we should learn from the past in order to create better societies in the future? (Not that we seem very good at it &#128542