Finances

[gazan]

Despite my fear that the topic may be hijacked, I wish to discuss how the club will be financed in future years.
Although there have been increased budgets over the last couple of years and the quality of recruitment has improved, the finances available seem to be at their maximum and have not been able to deepen the squad strength. This cannot go on as there is money swirling around at other clubs at our level and we may, eventually, cease to be competitive. There is a chance that some of these clubs are desperately chucking money at their situation hoping to gain instant rewards, which may, in the long term, rebound on them and cause financial ruin. It may also be possible that some of the 'sugar daddies' will realise the extent of long-term financial commitment necessary and pull out, leaving their clubs in real trouble.
However, this will not be true of all cases and with the economy being such a disaster and costs rising all the time, the general outlay just to remain stationery will continue to rise.
A few years ago, at the Alex, a potentially ruinous major shareholder was ousted. In an attempt to prevent any single person threatening the future of the club again, the structure of the management of the club was changed so that no single shareholder could hold more than a 12.5% share. This seemed (and still does) at the time very noble and preferable. However what this does is maintain the club at the level it currently is as it restricts the possibility of large influxes of cash that could be used to push the Alex forward.
Don't mistake what I've said as a condemnation of what we have. It is, as I said at the beginning, purely a desire to start a discussion. The chances are that I don't know the full picture or am looking at the situation at a slant.
It's just that the size of our squad seems to be limited by finances and this has been on my mind for a while. Last year and the current have seen a small number of scholars offered a contract. This is not necessarily due to the limited quality of talent among the scholars but has been decided by a financial imperative.
Add to all this the fact that Man City are now making counter moves against the Premier League in order the smash all financial sustainability regulations and the fact that with the announcement of a General Election, the progress of the football governance Bill has been halted, the economic future of football as we know it is under threat. How are a club the size of the Alex going to cope?

[Timmy58]

Despite my fear that the topic may be hijacked, I wish to discuss how the club will be financed in future years.
Although there have been increased budgets over the last couple of years and the quality of recruitment has improved, the finances available seem to be at their maximum and have not been able to deepen the squad strength. This cannot go on as there is money swirling around at other clubs at our level and we may, eventually, cease to be competitive. There is a chance that some of these clubs are desperately chucking money at their situation hoping to gain instant rewards, which may, in the long term, rebound on them and cause financial ruin. It may also be possible that some of the 'sugar daddies' will realise the extent of long-term financial commitment necessary and pull out, leaving their clubs in real trouble.
However, this will not be true of all cases and with the economy being such a disaster and costs rising all the time, the general outlay just to remain stationery will continue to rise.
A few years ago, at the Alex, a potentially ruinous major shareholder was ousted. In an attempt to prevent any single person threatening the future of the club again, the structure of the management of the club was changed so that no single shareholder could hold more than a 12.5% share. This seemed (and still does) at the time very noble and preferable. However what this does is maintain the club at the level it currently is as it restricts the possibility of large influxes of cash that could be used to push the Alex forward.
Don't mistake what I've said as a condemnation of what we have. It is, as I said at the beginning, purely a desire to start a discussion. The chances are that I don't know the full picture or am looking at the situation at a slant.
It's just that the size of our squad seems to be limited by finances and this has been on my mind for a while. Last year and the current have seen a small number of scholars offered a contract. This is not necessarily due to the limited quality of talent among the scholars but has been decided by a financial imperative.
Add to all this the fact that Man City are now making counter moves against the Premier League in order the smash all financial sustainability regulations and the fact that with the announcement of a General Election, the progress of the football governance Bill has been halted, the economic future of football as we know it is under threat. How are a club the size of the Alex going to cope?

At the risk of provoking an outburst, I think we have to consider the Academy and its pros and cons. Playing devils advocate, scrapping it would free up the money we pay in every year to maintain it and it is fair to say it is a sizable amount although, exactly how much I am unsure. And I also think it is difficult to imagine how long the club would survive having to fund transfers inward without directors putting their hand in their pocket each year. Something I think is unreasonable to expect! When set up it was suggested we needed a big sale every year to go toward paying for it. Clearly, in recent years those big sales have not really happened. So, its purpose takes on a different meaning and reason. Developing players who make it into the first team represents a saving on wages if nothing else. Personally, without our Academy there would be a steady decline in our standing. There will be some who disagree with this for sure. But without investment such as that bankrolling Gillingham right now and Wrexham for the last few years I don't see how we can compete. As Gazan says, the instant rewards can become a killer if that investment is reduced or stopped altogether.
I am sorry, I have no solutions.

[MikeSB]

At the risk of provoking an outburst, I think we have to consider the Academy and its pros and cons. Playing devils advocate, scrapping it would free up the money we pay in every year to maintain it and it is fair to say it is a sizable amount although, exactly how much I am unsure. And I also think it is difficult to imagine how long the club would survive having to fund transfers inward without directors putting their hand in their pocket each year. Something I think is unreasonable to expect! When set up it was suggested we needed a big sale every year to go toward paying for it. Clearly, in recent years those big sales have not really happened. So, its purpose takes on a different meaning and reason. Developing players who make it into the first team represents a saving on wages if nothing else. Personally, without our Academy there would be a steady decline in our standing. There will be some who disagree with this for sure. But without investment such as that bankrolling Gillingham right now and Wrexham for the last few years I don't see how we can compete. As Gazan says, the instant rewards can become a killer if that investment is reduced or stopped altogether.
I am sorry, I have no solutions.

You asked for it! There are solutions actually but the club, our club need to be more honest about the finances. We are losing money as the Chairman said just before wembley. He said if we were promoted, and had a good season in L1, then the club would break even. McGarry could have asked him how much we lose now and where do we get the money from to keep us going? it may be we exist with loans from the Banks etc and pay it back over years...Mr Grant needs to explain how much the academy Cat2 costs the club and whether downgrading the catergory similar to 99% of other clubs in the lower leagues would save X millions and the savings could go to providing more competetive wages that other clubs pay and it really is silly that we have our best players going on free transfers to other clubs and to others in our division.

I suggest our academy of the Dario era that attracted the wider football public with our style of play went out a long time ago and nobody fears our style of play now. I also think that downgrading the academy would save a huge amount in non players wages and please get away from the stupid idea that we need to have an academy training 6 year olds. Football is a natural sport where lads and youths and under 20's will have this natural ability without one football academy in sight ie as it used to be in the old days when players signed for clubs depending exactly on their natural ability whether PL or non league.

What I mean is we need people with a vision of how football used to be played and the talent that was available then and actually is now. Has England improved that much since academies came in and arguably hundreds of millions have been spent and are being spent on them today. Also kids will come here no matter what grade the academy is because of travel restrictions and parents needing to bring them to academies. How many Crewe kids have gone to Cat1 academies, how many to Cat2 academies of other clubs? Not just this but the PL can sign anyone they like as kids and why they won't pay the millions for our players as in actual fact, they are no where near PL standard and every club in the PL have hundreds of millions to waste now.

Grounds are half empty as the match prices are far too high and the PL are spending nearly a hundred million on one player now and the middle east are paying millions in wages to players far past their best now.

I suppose the answer at our level is semi professional where we can lower the wages, get the crowds in on lower match day prices and get them to do other jobs as well. The other thing is to do away with L1 and lower leagues as fully professional now. We need the TRUTH to come out but as the man asked.."What IS the truth"?

I'm not sure these clubs paying better wages have millionaires wasting their money on footballers and they can pay better wages as they are actually run better....Try a Cat4 academy for starters...????

[MikeSB]

BTW, in the old days you could not have loan players and they had a second eleven reserve team and so what does that tell us?

I think you can sign 5 players on loan and the rules were just from the same division and that has gone and so there are hundreds of players available for loan and so you really don't need an academy any more and just sign half a dozen decent players on free transfers and then add the loan players...We KNOW our academy costs well over a million pounds per season. What we don't know is how much does it cost the club? Essentially, the academy days were a flash in the pan and their day has gone...Thankfully. No decent player has need of half rated ex players to coach them...How many ex players are being paid in academies that should be working at B&Q?

We are told that the players are told how to take corners by the coaches.....Mmmmm, are they that dim they cannot work that out themselves without one? ie like every amateur team in the world?/

[Timmy58]

You asked for it! There are solutions actually but the club, our club need to be more honest about the finances. We are losing money as the Chairman said just before wembley. He said if we were promoted, and had a good season in L1, then the club would break even. McGarry could have asked him how much we lose now and where do we get the money from to keep us going? it may be we exist with loans from the Banks etc and pay it back over years...Mr Grant needs to explain how much the academy Cat2 costs the club and whether downgrading the catergory similar to 99% of other clubs in the lower leagues would save X millions and the savings could go to providing more competetive wages that other clubs pay and it really is silly that we have our best players going on free transfers to other clubs and to others in our division

Firstly, players leave because their contracts run down. If they are under 24 we get compensation. It is not enough, I agree. But you can't force players to sign deal that will benefit the club although you would hope they do. It was interesting to read that Charlie Kirk insisted Crewe got a fee for him so credit to him for that.


I suggest our academy of the Dario era that attracted the wider football public with our style of play went out a long time ago and nobody fears our style of play now. I also think that downgrading the academy would save a huge amount in non players wages and please get away from the stupid idea that we need to have an academy training 6 year olds. Football is a natural sport where lads and youths and under 20's will have this natural ability without one football academy in sight ie as it used to be in the old days when players signed for clubs depending exactly on their natural ability whether PL or non league.

I may be corrected on this but I suspect for kids aged pre 11 it is generally more of an "after school club" for many rather than serious coaching/training. Kids of that age are more into having fun. Mike you are so far behind the times there is literally no hope so I am not engaging about Natural ability v Coaching. It is not an "either/or". I also suspect there is a charge for kids attending the Academy but I stand to be corrected on this.

What I mean is we need people with a vision of how football used to be played and the talent that was available then and actually is now. Has England improved that much since academies came in and arguably hundreds of millions have been spent and are being spent on them today. Also kids will come here no matter what grade the academy is because of travel restrictions and parents needing to bring them to academies. How many Crewe kids have gone to Cat1 academies, how many to Cat2 academies of other clubs? Not just this but the PL can sign anyone they like as kids and why they won't pay the millions for our players as in actual fact, they are no where near PL standard and every club in the PL have hundreds of millions to waste now.


There is far too much money in the game now and steps need to be taken by the authorities to level it out. You are always going to have some with more than others. But it shouldn't be such a vast difference.


Grounds are half empty as the match prices are far too high and the PL are spending nearly a hundred million on one player now and the middle east are paying millions in wages to players far past their best now.

Match prices reflect the cost of running a club. Our prices are fairly reasonable in my view.

I suppose the answer at our level is semi professional where we can lower the wages, get the crowds in on lower match day prices and get them to do other jobs as well. The other thing is to do away with L1 and lower leagues as fully professional now. We need the TRUTH to come out but as the man asked.."What IS the truth"?

Semi pro would see us drop out of the league so again, wrong there.

I'm not sure these clubs paying better wages have millionaires wasting their money on footballers and they can pay better wages as they are actually run better....Try a Cat4 academy for starters...????

They literally do have millionaires backing them

.

[gazan]

I didn't actually ask MSB to respond but, I suppose, it was inevitable. However, the answers to that predictable response are straitforward enough. The costs of the academy over a year, when balanced against the savings on graduate salaries amounts to very little. The amounts involved are certainly not significant in terms of comparing it with having to recruit all our players from outside the club.
As for being part-time, I think only 2 clubs in the National League are not fully professional and they tend to be small clubs who are unsure of how long they'll be in the league.
As for the constant phobia re: academies, MSB, you always ask about why the Alex (and England) aren't doing better when they have all this coaching from academies (if coaching is so good) but the answer is simple: because a large percentage of other teams/countries also have coaching/academies. In fact many of those countries adopted formal coaching long before it was the case in England. This was how Hungary managed to beat England 6-3 and 7-1 in the mid 50s. Also there became a large gap while English teams were banned from Europe.
In general, to get back to the main topic, the problem lies in how professional football is developing in this country. Despite possible legislation, it seems big multi-national concerns are going to flex their muscles in order to gain as much power/money as they can hoover up. The question is, what can the Alex do to survive?
Anyway, open and constructive discussion is great. Let's keep this important topic constructive.

[MikeSB]

I didn't actually ask MSB to respond but, I suppose, it was inevitable. However, the answers to that predictable response are straitforward enough. The costs of the academy over a year, when balanced against the savings on graduate salaries amounts to very little. The amounts involved are certainly not significant in terms of comparing it with having to recruit all our players from outside the club.

Unless you know something we don't or I don't then you cannot possibly answer that question. Dario said we needed to sell a player each season for £760K. So the last big transfer away was Powell which was 12 years ago and so how is the club funding itself? Loans? The Chairman said we would break even if we won the play offs and had a good season in L1....McGarry should have asked him how much money are we losing now and how are we funding it? The rest of the last two replies are just nonsense and are just reiterations of points you have made before...Virtually all the clubs in L1 and L2 won't go near a Cat2 academy and yet they seem to sign players on transfer fees and wages and yet we can't at Crewe? Please tell me why? Our players are going to other clubs in the same league on more money....The academy was to sell players for millions in the PL....What happened next?

We will go down hill if something is not done with the presumed debt we have..I have recommended some changes, what have others offered here? A great big nothing!

[gazan]

I didn't actually ask MSB to respond but, I suppose, it was inevitable. However, the answers to that predictable response are straitforward enough. The costs of the academy over a year, when balanced against the savings on graduate salaries amounts to very little. The amounts involved are certainly not significant in terms of comparing it with having to recruit all our players from outside the club.

Unless you know something we don't or I don't then you cannot possibly answer that question. Dario said we needed to sell a player each season for £760K. So the last big transfer away was Powell which was 12 years ago and so how is the club funding itself? Loans? The Chairman said we would break even if we won the play offs and had a good season in L1....McGarry should have asked him how much money are we losing now and how are we funding it? The rest of the last two replies are just nonsense and are just reiterations of points you have made before...Virtually all the clubs in L1 and L2 won't go near a Cat2 academy and yet they seem to sign players on transfer fees and wages and yet we can't at Crewe? Please tell me why? Our players are going to other clubs in the same league on more money....The academy was to sell players for millions in the PL....What happened next?

We will go down hill if something is not done with the presumed debt we have..I have recommended some changes, what have others offered here? A great big nothing!

Ooops! Kettle: black etc. Did you really just accuse me of reiterating points I've made before???
Anyway, the figure you quote is nothing in the great scheme of things and, again ignores balancing costs against recruiting a whole team.
The point of this post is to raise discussion, so please no tantrums!
So your idea is simply to drop the academy. Okay That's your view. Time for other people to have their say about this important question.

[Timmy58]

Ooops! Kettle: black etc. Did you really just accuse me of reiterating points I've made before???
Anyway, the figure you quote is nothing in the great scheme of things and, again ignores balancing costs against recruiting a whole team.
The point of this post is to raise discussion, so please no tantrums!
So your idea is simply to drop the academy. Okay That's your view. Time for other people to have their say about this important question.

Dropping the Academy is not going to work long term. Short term you can sign players using that money that would be spent on the Academy. But we have seen pre Dario that the quality of player we could sign back then was not as good as the ones we have produced ourselves and in the modern day that is not going to be any better. Not getting a lot of "bang for your buck".

I really have no solution to what is going to be an ongoing problem other than a major investor which of course comes with its own problems. If I am honest, I am pretty happy with how our club is run. We own our ground, we have a board of directors who seem to have the club at heart (and that is arguably the biggest thing) and I am confident the club will still be operating long after I am gone.

[Terrierstan]

Aidan Callan gave an interview the other week saying they were expanding the academy more players more buildings improving the pitches more staff, etc.so no way are they getting rid or even down sizing anytime soon!! Hopefully that's a separate budget from player signings which we need pretty soon !!