So now we know...

[ramAnag]

No its not an obvious contradiction, its an observation along the lines of the boy who cried wolf. The act of repeatedly making the same point/calling for the same outcome is self-defeating after a while, its human nature for the public in receiving such a message to become numbed to any impact the message had originally, and in this instance it makes no difference if its you, Swale, Ed Davey, Mark Drakeford or whoever , 'you' haven't picked your moment well and 'you' stand no chance of removing the buffoon for this or possibly even greater misdemeanours, you've made him shockproof I'm afraid. As I said, sit it out.

I haven’t ‘picked my moment’ at all, Andy...and neither have any of those others you have mentioned.
The moment has been ‘picked’ by the timing of the announcement of the outcome of the police investigation.
We (by which I mean the electorate/society/social commentators/the press etc) have been told/asked to refrain from reaching a conclusion until the results of the aforementioned investigation were made public.
Well now they have...so why are you asking us to ‘sit it out’ for now?
The PM is a lying disingenuous charlatan...it’s official...and the tragedy is that I don’t even have to be concerned about the libel laws when I write that about the leader of our country.
That, imo, is what you should be concerned about.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Not for the first time I couldn’t agree more.

There can be no doubt now that Johnson is unfit to lead and the pitiful ‘nobody told me’ excuse makes that abundantly clear. If he needs an explanation of the meaning of his own rules how can we possibly have faith in the man to deal with the complexities of Ukraine, Brexit, fuel shortages etc.

I’m just shocked that posters such as AF and GP, who I may regularly disagree with but who are essentially decent and intelligent, still seek to excuse the utterly indefensible.

I'm shocked you're shocked rA. As inferred elsethread you have become the boy who constantly cries wolf and who takes every opportunity to throw barbs at the current government / leader. I don't approve of much BJ has done but your predicable rabble rousing has bored me to death. Oh God, Johnson farted - sack him. It's a question of the lesser of two evils - an unacceptable PM or an unacceptably predictible whinger. I chose neither, hence I yawn.

[ramAnag]

I'm shocked you're shocked rA. As inferred elsethread you have become the boy who constantly cries wolf and who takes every opportunity to throw barbs at the current government / leader. I don't approve of much BJ has done but your predicable rabble rousing has bored me to death. Oh God, Johnson farted - sack him. It's a question of the lesser of two evils - an unacceptable PM or an unacceptably predictible whinger. I chose neither, hence I yawn.

That really is complete bollux, GP...from someone with nothing left to say and no defence to offer.

Just two questions...how am I ‘crying wolf’? You do understand the fable I take it...all I’ve done is drawn attention to something which has now been proved factually correct

Earlier I described Johnson as a ‘lying, disingenuous charlatan’. Do you disagree with that? I very much doubt even you can anymore...so if not...is it acceptable to you that our Prime Minister may be accurately described in such a way?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I understand it, I'm not sure you do. You've being crying wolf so often that when there really is a wolf here, you cry again and I don't care as I've heard it all so many times before it's boring. In this case, don't blame the message, blame the messenger

[swaledale]

I'm not trying to defend anything, but if you agree with Swale you are agreeing with a contradiction - Swale states

'what could be a clearer demonstration to Russia and its citizens, that leaders are called to account in a true democracy' which is fair enough. I agree. But we live in a country where the democracy is exercised by a set of rules we all know, NOT by a very vocal minority, of which you two are a faction, clamouring for resignations at the slightest excuse (agreed this isn't a'slight excuse' but IMO the same applies). The predictable knee-jerk 'his/her position is untenable' mantra after every discretion in my opinion actually weakens the case for change, it just becomes a bit boring - leaving Labour aside for a mo, hasn't Ed Davey for instance got better policies that calling for ministers' heads all the time?

so, don't cherish the democracy which allows you to vote for change once in a while yet demand mob rule when it suits

Now, if its found that there's a LAW that makes misleading partliament a sackable offence, fair do's. That's the law. Otherwise, sit it out.

Hang on a minute - how I am being contradictory by saying that Johnson should resign? How is it a "vocal minority"? What proof do you have of that?

All I said and I repeat, it was until recently , indeed as recently as when Hancock resigned for breaching lockdown rules for a politician who had lied or misled or behaved in a manner not appropriate to their standing as a minister to either resign or be removed by their party.

What I'm saying here is that a person with any honour and our MP's are titled The Right Honourable, should resign as a matter of course in these circumstances, thats what happens in a democracy, the matter is resolved by either a resignation or the party in government or the Prime Minister, removing the offender from office.

Thats got nothing to do with "mob rule" as you claim, and everything to do with politicians and political parties in effect self policing and being seen to do the right thing in order to maintain the voters respect (or try to) in parliament and the political system. In order for the democracy i cherish to thrive, politicians and especially the Prime Minister have to be seen to be acting ethically, otherwise that very democracy is under threat.

Its is generally authoritarian dictators who cling desperately onto power, irrespective of whatever they have done, with nobody around them brave enough to apply the pressure.

Thats entirely different to not liking the policies, legal and honest actions a government or PM and other ministers may take during the life time of a parliament, in which case waiting until the next election is indeed the option. Not that means there cannot be public criticism, after all free speech and the expression public opinion is part of the democratic process.

So you find the calling out of the numerous missteps of Johnson and some of his fellow MP's and Ministers "boring"? Has it not occurred to you that the reason Johnson in particular is called out time and time again is because so much that he and his fellow ministers have done has been, fraudulent - viz. the awarding of contracts for PPE to firms that are run by people with links to the Tory party, dubious viz. the enormous sums of money donated by people with Russian connections (and dodgy ones at that) hypocritical viz. the tax affairs of the Chancellors wife, when he is raising taxes and so and so forth.

You seem to think, and Johnson and his colleagues would certainly love that to be the case, that highlighting and calling these many examples of frankly unacceptable actions, should be ignored? I think your mistaken when you say it bores people, on the contrary it fixes in peoples minds the utter crass way the current government is working. Yes those who would vote Tory if it were a donkey will not bother. Many other voters will however and IF as I suspect they do try and brazen this out, then there will be a backlash in the polls.

Indeed, you have actually contradicted yourself by admitting that this isn't a "slight" excuse and to be honest how many serious issues of trust, transparency and competence do there have to be before one the position of the PM becomes untenable?

[swaledale]

I understand it, I'm not sure you do. You've being crying wolf so often that when there really is a wolf here, you cry again and I don't care as I've heard it all so many times before it's boring. In this case, don't blame the message, blame the messenger

Ah so your bored with a PM and government that is trashing the principle that politicians should at the very least try and appear to act in a truthful, law abiding manner and resign when found not to be? I take it you will happily vote Tory despite all this then? otherwise you would be appalled surely?

[MadAmster]

The war could drag on for years? It has already, albeit in a smaller form, been going on for 8 years.

Boris is a serial liar. He has lied to wives and girl friends and been divorced/dumped for it. He lied in his newspaper columns and got sacked for it. He lied to the then PM and was sacked from his post as Minister. He has now lied, on several occasions to Parliament / misled Parliament. The call for his head isn't over the top be it for no other reason than these more recent lies go against the Ministerial Code of Conduct. Surely he can't stay, can he? The Code says he can't but I don't refer to him as the Teflon Tosser for nothing.......

[ramAnag]

I understand it, I'm not sure you do. You've being crying wolf so often that when there really is a wolf here, you cry again and I don't care as I've heard it all so many times before it's boring. In this case, don't blame the message, blame the messenger

Sorry but you really do need a wake up call. Your complacency has clearly deadened your sense of right and wrong and your moral compass has now ceased to function completely.
I take it by ‘crying wolf’ you mean drawing attention to Boris Johnson’s lies. Yes I have done that but, unlike the boy who cried wolf, those lies have been all too real and apparent. Read MA’s post if you need further confirmation.

[swaledale]

Sorry but you really do need a wake up call. Your complacency has clearly deadened your sense of right and wrong and your moral compass has now ceased to function completely.
I take it by ‘crying wolf’ you mean drawing attention to Boris Johnson’s lies. Yes I have done that but, unlike the boy who cried wolf, those lies have been all too real and apparent. Read MA’s post if you need further confirmation.

rA, either there is an element of devils advocate here, or and I would say this is more likely, there is a view that whatever Johnson does, they will hold their noses because thats where their inclinations lie and the hope is that everyone will have forgotten a shambolic Brexit, party gate, Covid mishandling and corruption, the hypocrisy, the sleaze, the lack of holding ministers to standards etc. etc. by the time the election looms.

It is a very strange thing to say that calling out serious errors or misbehaviour by the PM "gets boring", that implies you should wait for the really serious one before you do that! Difficult if your not blessed with foresight.

They both seem to miss the point that there are so many instances of Johnson or his ministers behaving unethically or a rather blaming you for pointing them out rather than Johnson for the way he operates! Rather like blaming the victims for an increase in crime it seems to me.

I'm still struggling how a the public and media suggesting a politician resigns (which one would expect opposition parties to do) and calling them out when they behave or act in a manner contrary to the standards expected of them is mob rule?

Is it a serious suggestion that MP's who are not convicted of a crime, but are found to have acted contrary to the expected standards of parliamentarians and especially the Prime Minister and other Ministers are not held to account other than at an election?

I certainly didn't notice that view when the media and other commentators were piling into Corbyn, often with false and unsubstantiated slurs! I wonder if it was a labour PM that was being asked to resign whether the views expressed would be the same?

[swaledale]

Here are a few "boring" examples of this governments attitude to law, ethics and standards of behaviour!!


The Vote Leave administration’s coup against the rule of law began when it broke electoral law over-spending limits during the 2016 EU Referendum.

One of the first actions of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings was to prorogue Parliament, a move later struck down as unlawful by the Supreme Court.



The there was ‘Wallpapergate’. Lord Geidt, the independent advisor on ministerial interests (who Chancellor Rishi Sunak has just referred himself to over questions surrounding his financial interests and those of his wife), chided Johnson for acting “unwisely” over the lavish refurbishment of his Downing Street flat. The Conservative Party was fined £18,000 by the Electoral Commission for failing to properly declare the donations.

The High Court ruled last February that Matt Hancock, while Health and Social Care Secretary, had acted unlawfully in failing to publish details of multi-billion-pound Government COVID contracts within the 30-day period required by law. The failures of Hancock and his department had breached the “***** public function” of transparency over how “vast quantities” of taxpayers’ money was spent. In January this year, the High Court ruled that the Government’s ‘VIP lane’ – which awarded personal protective equipment contracts to firms with links to ministers, MPs and officials – was also unlawful.

When Priti Patel was found to have broken the ministerial code for bullying members of staff, Johnson supported her and his parliamentary standards officer resigned in protest.

Lies have been repeated flagrantly to Parliament without consequence, and there is a sense of impunity throughout the highest offices of state.

Lies have been repeated flagrantly to Parliament without consequence, and there is a sense of impunity throughout the highest offices of state.