O/T Disgrace Cummings

[ragingpup]

Quite amused that Cummings and some on here are saying that the public anger on this is down to the media stirring it up.

I'm sure we established on here only two days ago that this was an arrogant and patronising stance to take and that the good public are more than capable of thinking for themselves?

Which was is it guys?!

[ragingpup]

Problem with this statement animal is. If Boris does pull off a great deal for the UK and we are In a prominent position in 4 years time you must now vote Tory in the next election. Is this something you are prepared to do?.
Prob the same goes for Roly. I don't have problems party bashing bit same would need applying to doff the cap when /if it's reversed

Good question Cayton. The conservatives have made huge promises during both Brexit and their election campaign. Whilst I remain Brexit agnostic and am ok with however that turns out as long as the environment, H&SC and the economy/workers benefit as a result, if they see through with their promises to build infrastructure and the economies in shat on Northern towns from which the local people benefit, as well as invest in national H&SC infrastructure, I would have no problem with voting Conservative. My wife may divorce me but it would be worth it to see that pig fly! But they did promise all of this, so I would be delighted if it happened, and happy to say I was wrong to be so skeptical.

[KerrAvon]

I haven't commented on this thread as I don't feel as strongly as some and the party political stuff quickly gets out of hand. I don't think that what Cummings did was crime of the century, if you believe the first part about his reason for travelling to Durham, I am sure that would have been a decision that some of us would have made, so as a human and a parent I don't 'mark him down'. Even the second trip to the castle was hardly a hanging offence (leaving aside the preposterous excuse for a moment). Popping to a local beauty spot to cheer up his wife on her birthday after a crap couple of weeks when they were both feeling better was a breach of the rules but hardly the worst thing we have seen recently. The problem is clearly that as one of the architects of the government lockdown policy, you have to abide by it, the rules, the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. All of it. He didn't and as such he should have resigned or at the very least apologised and honestly explained himself, not wait all weekend to see what he could get away with and then come out with some nonsense that happened to fit around what he had been caught doing.
The really sad thing has been they way the story has been handled and the implications this has for political discourse in future. For decades politicians and advisors that have been caught with their pants down/their fingers in the till or doing something that caused embarrassment resigned from their roles. The talented ones rose back through the ranks and after the requisite time period had elapsed, got back to the lofty heights before their shame. Had Cummings resigned on Saturday morning the consequences would have been relatively minor. The story would have fizzled out much more quickly and I have no doubt that Cummings would have carried on doing essentially what he does now from the end of a phone for the next 6 months before rising again like a phoenix from the flames when we had all moved on with our lives. Not only would this have benefitted Mr Johnson, it would have benefitted the government's lockdown policy and stopped attention being taken away from the public health message.
Unfortunately we are now in a new era of politics where rather than take their medicine, the government decided to lie and bull**** until the cows came home and this is what grinds my gears and leaves me worried about the future. Although this is straight out of the Trump playbook, I don't think this is a party political left/right thing, I think it is the new landscape we inhabit. No longer do people analyse what is being said, they analyse who is saying it and whether they reflect the political ideology they personally hold. Because of this the government felt they could lie their way through this, use loopholes that were intended for child protection from domestic abuse to cover their man and try to make us believe that we hadn't heard what we thought we had heard. The excuse about testing his eye sight was laughable, even given this is no laughing matter. If you do believe this, please stop and think for a moment, would you believe it from someone whose politics you disagree with?
They may or may not have misjudged their audience on this one. Cummings has made a lot of enemies across the political spectrum and as well as those that are horrified by his behaviour, there are plenty more who are enjoying seeing him squirm and most of them are to his right, not his left.
If the government rides this out then this will be the default tactic going forward. It won't matter if it's tory/Labour/Coalition whatever, they will lie and lie and lie, so I hope he is removed for that reason.
The biggest victim here will be the government's public health policy. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs but despite a few headlines over beaches, the public's response has been unprecedented and I imagine beyond what was expected. Inevitably this will now reduce. Trust in the policy has been damaged and the NHS app in particular is now a dead duck. Beyond the technical problems they have had, with those concerned about privacy on one side and those who feel it's 'one rule for us and one rule for them' on the other side, the chances of getting the downloads required are zero.

I pretty much agree with that Tony subject to a few caveats:

1. I don't think a lack of ministerial responsibility is a new phenomenon. The slide probably started in the late 80s, and was well advanced by the turn of the century;
2. A lack of honesty from politicians is certainly not a new phenomenon and is not restricted to the Tories by any means.

What is new is the Trump style approach where you look the camera in the eye and tell a big whopper in the sure and certain knowledge that the majority of the people watching will know it's a whopper.

It's almost as though we have come to expect porkies as a matter of course such that we don't even blink when it happens. This is one of the reasons why I am so disillusioned and, at times, angry about what our political parties offer us, but there is nobody to blame but ourselves. As I observed in an earlier thread, we have become a people that thinks that there are easy and painless solutions to every problem and, if there aren't, we would prefer politicians to simply lie and tell us that there are.

[KerrAvon]

As well as having the politicians we deserve, we have the press we deserve. However, when people say 'why are there no honest politicians', it's because you didn't vote for them.

You can only vote for what is put in front of you. The December 2019 election was a choice between two people who should not have been anywhere near the top of their parties. It was the battle of the unelectables.

[rolymiller]

That's the problem Roly. Your not even giving johnson/torys the chance. you have dismissed it before even seeing what we end up with.
It reminds me of when May went for the 2nd vote on Brexit deal. Sky news asked a labour parliament member
"Which way are you voting" she replied NO. "I can't back that deal". The reporter then asked if she had read it which she responded. NO not yet but it will be the same as the last deal

Regards do I think Johnson will get a good deal. I'm not sure. I would hope he will. What I can't do is criticise him without seeing what he has to offer.
It's the same looking at covid. There is a few mistakes made but a lot of positive things they have also done. And hopefully going forwards the NHS will get the reform it desperately needs due to this tragedy.

I have given the Tories a chance. I have said I will vote for them if they get the deal that looks after the poor in this country.

[rolymiller]

You can only vote for what is put in front of you. The December 2019 election was a choice between two people who should not have been anywhere near the top of their parties. It was the battle of the unelectables.

You could vote for neither of course

[animallittle3]

Problem with this statement animal is. If Boris does pull off a great deal for the UK and we are In a prominent position in 4 years time you must now vote Tory in the next election. Is this something you are prepared to do?.
Prob the same goes for Roly. I don't have problems party bashing bit same would need applying to doff the cap when /if it's reversed

I'd never vote for the Tories Cayton because of their total belief in reducing the role of the state and ideological total trust of private enterprise to run them instead .

[rolymiller]

You don't have to vote
which I think is a good freedom to have in this country. I can't be doing with the Aussie version and others where you have to vote. Politicians need to know that the electorate are not gonna put up with any cr ap from anybody.

[KerrAvon]

You don't have to vote
which I think is a good freedom to have in this country. I can't be doing with the Aussie version and others where you have to vote. Politicians need to know that the electorate are not gonna put up with any cr ap from anybody.

I have voted in every GE since 1983 - the first one after I reached 18. I gave some thought to spoiling my paper last December given the choice on offer.

Even if you don't vote, Roly, a government is elected and you have to put up with the 'cr ap'. Voting gives you a choice over the flavour it comes in.

[rolymiller]

Why should you have to put up with shyte or bobbar flavours? We should aspire to summat better if we want a progressive society. Our political system dunt have to stay the same. It can evolve. Are you saying we will still have the same political system in 100/1000 years? The world will be different then if it still exists in any recognisable form. The corona virus experience has shown that solutions to global problems need global answers not national answers. The same will apply to the coming environmental problems the world will face. You can't put a wall up as the likes of gfire think and then think you will in some way immune to global warming and environmental disaster. We need global policies to solve these problems and some kind of global democratic politics to do it. If we don't space ship earth will be knacked. The problem for the world is will this new form of politics evolve quickly enough. I have serious doubts myself.