Brexit

[AucklandRover]

I am totally stunned.
I don't know if you realise that - to the rest of the world - this looks on a par with Donald Trump being selected as a Presidential candidate.
And it's no good saying, "The rest of the world doesn't understand."
That's just not true because fear of excessive immigration is rife everywhere - even in New Zealand, where the Chinese are the currently favoured scapegoats.
This decision is just so short-sighted. The immigration problem isn't going to disappear overnight anyway, and what about the lasting damage to other parts of the economy?
In my lifetime, this whine of "They're taking all our jobs" has come up time and again - despite the fact that the incomers usually do the shi**iest jobs for the shi**iest wages!
Have people not taken into account at all the political side of it? After a thousand years of European wars (mainly caused by petty, chest-thumping nationalism), we finally manage to create a union that makes such wars impossible, only to dump it in favour of good old HMS England, bravely taking on the world in the spirit of Queen Victoria and Churchill.
In any case, whatever your views, how anyone would want to be on the same side as Boris, Farage and Gove beats me!
Pathetic.

[Despair]

It will probably make me unpopular but: I can't totally disagree with you Aucks.
I am afraid though that you residing in NZ (in pref to UK) is setting yourself up to be severely shot at.

Yes, the uncontrolled immigration is a problem, and yes the open door policy was stupid, and yes again the EU is a 'failing institution'.
I did say that this way forward could actually destroy the UK (Scotlands as good as on its own way) and the acceleration of a possible EU collapse, but no worry it won't affect us ???

But, for me there are two huge issues;
The EU (earlier called the Common Market) is not what many bought into all those years ago, its becoming a federal dictate.
Time and again the populace have heard that migration will be brought under control, but there's precious little sign of it, (schengen is in all but name).

The EU elite are totally blinkered in forging their path, no matter. Our own political elite have not exactly bestowed themselves very well and with that I'm afraid the electorate has lost total faith and felt they're not being heard or represented.
Along comes the people to save us and take us back to our illustrious empirical days, Rule Brittania and all that.
But that ship sailed centuries ago and the worlds now a very different place. We've had 'our turn' at the top table, but now all that's over.
I would not, and do not dis anyone for voting to go on this uncharted journey, for the reasons above, but for me its one hell of a risk.
I firmly believe that even now, as commented upon in one piece, that London (the powerhouse of the UK) could well be plotting some form of separatist conclave apart from all of the 'outsiders'. How this would shape up I have no idea.

I just really do hope that we 'rise to the challenge' sufficiently to place us on an even keel, whilst still having a trading platform with the EU. I would also like to think that the EU struggles on, and does not dissolve into an almighty mess, where the repercussions do not bear thinking about.
There is a utopian ideal being touted where we all go our own ways (in the aftermath of a EU demise), but at the same time get along really well. Not so sure about that, as we can't agree within 'the club', so not any realistic chance out of it.
If the EU had acknowledged its failings and taken on board all its populaces concerns and then amended 'the plan', we would not be where we are today.

There is a EU powerhouse out there that will now be hurting, as will the larger corporations and the City of London, all of which this vote rails against, but they're there and can do untold harm in retribution.

Calm heads are needed now.

Please don't forget its a forum lads for opinion, if you totally disagree that's fine.

[alfinyalcabo]

What a great result for democracy,the question was asked and was answered with a leave result,people have benn fed up for years with the way we were being ruled by the bureaucracy in Brussels ..The icing on the cake being Cameroon has resigned..a momentous day in politics..

Despair,you vote how you think fit,I was in the leave campaign and democracy has come out on top ,that's what makes England stand out from the rest..

[alfinyalcabo]

I am totally stunned.
I don't know if you realise that - to the rest of the world - this looks on a par with Donald Trump being selected as a Presidential candidate.
And it's no good saying, "The rest of the world doesn't understand."
That's just not true because fear of excessive immigration is rife everywhere - even in New Zealand, where the Chinese are the currently favoured scapegoats.
This decision is just so short-sighted. The immigration problem isn't going to disappear overnight anyway, and what about the lasting damage to other parts of the economy?
In my lifetime, this whine of "They're taking all our jobs" has come up time and again - despite the fact that the incomers usually do the shi**iest jobs for the shi**iest wages!
Have people not taken into account at all the political side of it? After a thousand years of European wars (mainly caused by petty, chest-thumping nationalism), we finally manage to create a union that makes such wars impossible, only to dump it in favour of good old HMS England, bravely taking on the world in the spirit of Queen Victoria and Churchill.
In any case, whatever your views, how anyone would want to be on the same side as Boris, Farage and Gove beats me!
Pathetic.

I voted not to join the European in 1972 and took it on the Chin when we did,now it's the turn of the remain camp to take it on the chin..Dontworry Aucks ,things have a way of sorting themselves out.. We are now able to make our own destiny in our country,without being told what to do by other countries..

[champs95]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

[Despair]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

I'm much the same Champs, (even though Alf reads my 'concerns' as being an 'in' voter!).
The public battles from both sides were in my opinion shameful, and did not really address the key issues. Not only that but also, in many cases, totally confused the electorate. By that I mean in both directions.
As you say, Aucks maybe should also consider what virtually all the other nations (not their current leaders) are saying especially; Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland. Not all of these can surely all be naïve.

The EU needs major reform, the EU needs to be reined in with regards its federal aspirations, the EU needs to be accountable to someone, somewhere. All of those are very good reasons to walk away, but just maybe staying on and forcing these changes in collaboration with those listed above, (plus 90% of the other members) would have been the smarter tack. That's exactly what is dismaying those others.
But we have arrived at a 'enough is enough' moment, delivered by a democratic vote and for better or worse that's where we're at.
I'm not predicting doom and gloom, as quite simply no one knows. Just as staying on would be wine and roses - no one knows.
I just feel the ones who are going to pay most as if and when it gets 'bumpy' will be the usual suspects As its always been.

[AucklandRover]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

Well, there are the unseens. Take Scotland away - and that looks a certainty - and you may well be left with the fact of a permanent Tory government, based on the way the English constituencies voted at the last election.
What is amazing is the unlikely alliance that won the vote. It appears to be a combination of the gentry/upper middle-classes in the Shires who believe England should still rule the world, and the English working class who blame the current situation on poor people from other countries rather than on a series of right-wing governments whose failed free-market, neo-liberal economic policies brought the world crashing into the worst recession in 90 years in the first place!
Still, those Johnny Foreigners with funny languages won't be bothering us in the future. England can return to its glorious destiny - led, presumably, by Boris Johnson.
Perhaps when I wake up, Johnson and Trump will turn out to have been creatures of nightmare only.

[champs95]

I don't even believe that it was a case of the common man feeling it was about England 'ruling the world', quite the contrary. It was more what is happening up to now, isn't exactly working out well. Immigration is an issue that got manipulated, for example. Brutally.
Mainly because here, it's not the news that's distorting your view, it's happening in the streets your living on. Again, to reiterate, I am mainly in the 'IN' camp. That was how my vote went. But the reaction of both sides today has been appalling IMO.

In every part of our history there's been a Boris Johnson. This clown incumbent has been echoed throughout history and dealt with in the correct manner eventually. This will be no different.
'Things are going to get alot worse' are the words uttered by the losing Party, in all of my adult life. We've been out before, it's time to see what happens again. The whole of the EU needs a reform. And the level headed ones are already looking at us, and asking for their own referendums. Right or wrong, I think it was about time things changed. They where/are not working, not for us anyway.

[AucklandRover]

I don't even believe that it was a case of the common man feeling it was about England 'ruling the world', quite the contrary. It was more what is happening up to now, isn't exactly working out well. Immigration is an issue that got manipulated, for example. Brutally.
Mainly because here, it's not the news that's distorting your view, it's happening in the streets your living on. Again, to reiterate, I am mainly in the 'IN' camp. That was how my vote went. But the reaction of both sides today has been appalling IMO.

In every part of our history there's been a Boris Johnson. This clown incumbent has been echoed throughout history and dealt with in the correct manner eventually. This will be no different.
'Things are going to get alot worse' are the words uttered by the losing Party, in all of my adult life. We've been out before, it's time to see what happens again. The whole of the EU needs a reform. And the level headed ones are already looking at us, and asking for their own referendums. Right or wrong, I think it was about time things changed. They where/are not working, not for us anyway.

Champs - I didn't argue that the "common man" saw England ruling the world again. I was saying that is partly an explanation of the votes from the Hoorah Henrys in the Shires.
I accept that the working class vote was directed against the fact that no-one in Europe seemed to be listening.
My point is, though, that The Who were wrong when they said we "Won't Get Fooled Again". Bitterness has been successfully targeted at the "faceless bureaucracy" in Brussels when only last year, Britain re-elected - with an increased majority - a government that follows the same tired old "free-market" policies that have continued to widen the gaps between rich and poor, and which actually brought about the desperate economic depression that has gone on so long.
And who's to blame? Apparently, Bulgarian migrant workers!
And what has this vote made likely? Quite possibly, a permanent majority for a Tory government with an even more right-wing agenda than Cameron's! Do you think Farage and UKIP are going to quietly disappear? They'll want to be part of whatever happens next. And look what has already happened to the promise of an immediate boost to NHS funding.
As for Boris, he may be a clown, but he is a potentially dangerous one. A year ago, we were treating Trump's political aspirations as a joke!

[AucklandRover]

It will probably make me unpopular but: I can't totally disagree with you Aucks.
I am afraid though that you residing in NZ (in pref to UK) is setting yourself up to be severely shot at.

Yes, the uncontrolled immigration is a problem, and yes the open door policy was stupid, and yes again the EU is a 'failing institution'.
I did say that this way forward could actually destroy the UK (Scotlands as good as on its own way) and the acceleration of a possible EU collapse, but no worry it won't affect us ???

But, for me there are two huge issues;
The EU (earlier called the Common Market) is not what many bought into all those years ago, its becoming a federal dictate.
Time and again the populace have heard that migration will be brought under control, but there's precious little sign of it, (schengen is in all but name).

The EU elite are totally blinkered in forging their path, no matter. Our own political elite have not exactly bestowed themselves very well and with that I'm afraid the electorate has lost total faith and felt they're not being heard or represented.
Along comes the people to save us and take us back to our illustrious empirical days, Rule Brittania and all that.
But that ship sailed centuries ago and the worlds now a very different place. We've had 'our turn' at the top table, but now all that's over.
I would not, and do not dis anyone for voting to go on this uncharted journey, for the reasons above, but for me its one hell of a risk.
I firmly believe that even now, as commented upon in one piece, that London (the powerhouse of the UK) could well be plotting some form of separatist conclave apart from all of the 'outsiders'. How this would shape up I have no idea.

I just really do hope that we 'rise to the challenge' sufficiently to place us on an even keel, whilst still having a trading platform with the EU. I would also like to think that the EU struggles on, and does not dissolve into an almighty mess, where the repercussions do not bear thinking about.
There is a utopian ideal being touted where we all go our own ways (in the aftermath of a EU demise), but at the same time get along really well. Not so sure about that, as we can't agree within 'the club', so not any realistic chance out of it.
If the EU had acknowledged its failings and taken on board all its populaces concerns and then amended 'the plan', we would not be where we are today.

There is a EU powerhouse out there that will now be hurting, as will the larger corporations and the City of London, all of which this vote rails against, but they're there and can do untold harm in retribution.

Calm heads are needed now.

Please don't forget its a forum lads for opinion, if you totally disagree that's fine.

Despair - I honestly do believe the "political" element has largely been ignored. My son tells me there's no chance of Europe reverting to its old, warlike ways, but look what happened when Yugoslavia broke up. Look what's happening in the former Soviet Union now.
Of course, I don't imagine we're going to go back to the 100 Years War, but I'd say what the world needs is MORE unity, MORE international co-operation - not less.
I've just watched another interview with Farage. How could anyone trust him?! I've also just watched street-interviews in which people admit they are already wishing they hadn't voted to leave. It's like some Monty Python sketch with people like Farage, Gove and Boris as the impossible-to-take-seriously characters!
Can someone explain to me how things are going to miraculously get better because of this decision?
One of the people I saw interviewed said she hadn't really thought about what was going to happen afterwards: DUH!!!