OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=MadAmster;39824195]Tricky, I've seen hop famers and fruit and vegetable farmers interviewed because they were having to destroy part of their crops as they couldn't harvest them all due to not being able to get enough pickers in.

To a man they said they had had some English people come in and none of them lasted 2 days. Not enough wanting the job in the first place and too much like hard work for those that did give it a go.

How you can say the EU caused non of this is baffling.
1. FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT/
2. FLOODING THE LABOUR MARKET/
3. OVERLOADING SERVICES/
4. EU LAWS- MUST PAY THEM THE SAME BENEFITS ETC. [UNQUOTE]

1. Worked both ways. Look at how many Brits are now complaining that Brexit restricting their movements to the EU was NOT what they voted for.
2. Did they flood the labour market or did we only see EU citizens coming in to do the jobs UK citizens can't/won't? I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Highly skilled jobs, NHS jobs, jobs where the UK has insufficient qualified indigenous people to fill the vacancies. Ever since its inception the NHS has relied on immigrant doctors/nurses/porters etc. Then there's the menial, hard working jobs like the crop pickers and others which the indigenous people won't do and stop inside 2 days when they do have a go. At least those foreigners are putting food on the UK tables. There is also a 3rd issue neither of us has covered thus far. Namely, unscrupulous bosses. There are a lot of those about. There are those who only just manage to stick to the rules by paying immigrant workers the minimum they can get away with and use them to replace higher paid UK citizens. That's not the EU's fault. Then there's the ones who employ immigrants, both legal and illegal and also house them in very overcrowded buildings, charging them a King's ransom for the privilege. That's not the EU's fault either.
3. EU citizens pay more into UK services than they take out so are they really responsible for overloading the system? I don't believe they are.
4. It works both ways though. UK citizens had the self same benefits when they moved to work in the EU and I'm still benefitting from that. Relatively speaking there are, as a percentage, less EU citizens (3.5M - EU population 446M) in the UK than the other way round (1.2M - UK population around 65M).

Maddy you make some valid points, some of which I agree with, some I don't.

1. Who is moaning/ how many/ when and where? Is it greater than 17.5 million?
2. Again, you evaded what I am saying-
WAGES- These jobs are menial and graft, I get that. But land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing.
Now foreign labour has worked for a while, but the longer the EU clock ticks, the less attractive it is as the standard of living gap closes.
It is exactly what I am saying with the lorry drivers, if you watched me video. Are you aware that there 80 000 fully licensed drivers in the UK now, who have refused to work in the job for the pay and conditions offered?
Try listening to the people it involves, not you and I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiPh5TLYWMI

All this because agencies and big corporates have raped the cheap EU labour on offer FACT!

4. Lets get your figures correct shall we, they look dodgy to me. I have already said that there are 6M Europeans who have applied for permenant residency, never mind the illegals bouncing around.
Of those 6M, 900 000 are Romanian. You know that country where the BBC in 2014 claimed, 50 000 Romanians AND BULGARIANS were all that will come.

As for Brits abroad. How many are retirees(like yourself), spending their pensions there and not taking up resources?
I can't see many of those 900 000 coming here for a quiet life in Clacton.

[MadAmster]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry Andy...you’re making no sense.

I post an objective on topic post about the apparent impact of Brexit upon local refuse collection backed up by a circular sent to local residents by a (Conservative) District Council.

You reply saying, very forthrightly, that the communique ‘makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage’.

I take umbrage at you effectively saying I’ve made this up and provide the quote, source and time, and further provide you privately with a full copy of the Derbyshire Dales message which categorically includes the comment that ‘the emergency situation...has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

You then apologise but in the next breath (sentence) accuse me of having ‘subconsciously embellished’ the story. How?

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

[Andy_Faber]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

MA,

TTR is no doubt plugged in somewhere for a recharge, so in the meantime...I'd seen an article on point 2 (and by extension point 3) on the AOL front page recently. From my recollection you're right and he isn't but he has a point. The official figure IS 3.5 million, but the number of applications for settled status is well in excess of that, something like 5.7 million people (there have been lots of duplicate applications for some reason), and of course that 2.2 million may, or may not, exercise their right to settle in UK in the future. Rumanians, being subject to the same process are a subset of the whole.

Where TTR does have a stronger point (I can't find the exact post, he's a bit too prolific for me) is that even your lower number is in the order of ten times the number anticipated when the borders were opened to Eastern Europe, and that monumental miscalculation is one of the reasons our public services are creaking at the seems (by no means the only one of course)

[ramAnag]

OK If you insist.

I’ll just focus on one thing, that is your comment ‘Absolutely no embellishment from me, Andy.... The words I used are exactly the same as the words that were forwarded to me by DDDC...Up to you if you apologise. I think we should when we’re 100% in the wrong and accuse others of being deliberately so’.

I’ll simply quote from two of your posts.

The above post quotes from the DD press release
‘Many councils have declared an ‘emergency situation’ after large numbers of staff have been told to self isolate by the Covid-19 app.
This has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’.

Agreed, that’s what it says. (Further drilling into the source data suggests its totally wrong but that’s a separate issue I'm happy to explain again)

In your first post on the subject you state: (my italics)

'(I) just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.

That’s a) embellishment and b) not the exact words used by DD. I’m not even going to put a spin on why you might have done that, just pointing out a fact.

How many times? So...I, and they, have referred to Covid, problems with wages and Brexit. In the context of all the communications we, as Derbyshire Dales residents, have received that is entirely correct, but the particular quote says, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

That is all I have ever claimed. There was no qualification however much you’d like to find one, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’ is what was said and there is no avoiding that, in this case you are...stubbornly wrong. The words I quoted were the ‘exact words’.

Not sure what your problem is over this. As I remember it you didn’t even vote for bloody Brexit, but you started this off by denying that Brexit was even mentioned in the communique.

‘It makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage, in fact it doesn’t expand on use of ‘Brexit’ at all’ were the exact words you used and you were totally wrong and out of order on that.

Perhaps you’d be better off considering the consequences of a Tory Council in a Leave area laying the blame for the current widespread problems with refuse collection on Brexit, rather than trying to play semantic games with me.

[Trickytreesreds]

A couple of questions TTR

1. where did the 17.5M figure come from and to what does it pertain?
2. I googled how many EU citizens in the UK in 2021 and got the figure 3.5M, where did you get 6M from? https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/a...ing-in-the-uk/
3. Wages. You say they are low because "land owners/supermarkets want it done for next to nothing."How is that the fault of the EU?
4. I looked and, as of June 2020, there were 404K Romanians in the UK https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...4dUDCA4&uact=5
.... where did you get the 900K figure?

1. The 17.5 M was the voters who said no
2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637 it has gone up since
3. It's the EU fault for absorbing all the old soviet bloc countries and upsetting the standard of living in Northern Europe. Free movement has driven it.
4. The 900 000 came from a poltics tv programme. I'll try to find it. Over a year ago, it cleared half a million THAT APPLIED for permanent residency. https://www.romania-insider.com/roma...t-uk-residence


If you want to look at what that does for areas, try this. Avoid Sheffield if you can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-H4ItqOLo

[Trickytreesreds]

Couldn't find what i watched, but here's a romanian news figure, 918 000.
It's not something the BBC would admit to.

http://romaninuk.net/index.php/2013-...enta-britanica

So would you like to revise your ratio?

[Andy_Faber]

How many times? So...I, and they, have referred to Covid, problems with wages and Brexit. In the context of all the communications we, as Derbyshire Dales residents, have received that is entirely correct, but the particular quote says, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’

That is all I have ever claimed. There was no qualification however much you’d like to find one, ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’ is what was said and there is no avoiding that, in this case you are...stubbornly wrong. The words I quoted were the ‘exact words’.

Not sure what your problem is over this. As I remember it you didn’t even vote for bloody Brexit, but you started this off by denying that Brexit was even mentioned in the communique.

‘It makes no link between Brexit and the driver shortage, in fact it doesn’t expand on use of ‘Brexit’ at all’ were the exact words you used and you were totally wrong and out of order on that.

Perhaps you’d be better off considering the consequences of a Tory Council in a Leave area laying the blame for the current widespread problems with refuse collection on Brexit rather than trying to play semantic games with me.

If you think your words were the exact words there's no response I can offer so I'll back out of this one like I should have done yesterday

[ramAnag]

If you think your words were the exact words there's no response I can offer so I'll back out of this one like I should have done yesterday

Ah...the old ‘back out’ trick...again! No idea what’s happened to you Andy but it won’t work. Next you’ll be saying, ‘Oh, I was just joshing rA,’...again! The words used by DDDC were the words I quoted.

The words I quoted were the exact words. Derbyshire Dales wrote yesterday about the refuse collection problem...`this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit.’ That is not my opinion it is fact which, despite you initially denying that Brexit was even mentioned, I have provided for you in black and white.

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tell you what...to clear this monumentally boring, but highly relevant, spat up for good...if you still don’t believe they wrote that ‘this has been compounded by a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers as a result of Brexit’, you tell us all what they did actually write.

RA that is simply not true.
The Brexit thing is a red herring to cover up the plight.
There are 80 000 HGV drivers in this country now! NOT WORKING in the industry. All qualified and reeady for the job. They won't do it, because of wages and conditions.
Just because the Poles and Romanians have had enough and bombed it as well, is bugger all to do with Brexit.
We reaped what we sowed.
Just like Starmer with the Labour party. This country has a lot of wrongs to put right, that isn't going to happen over night.