OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

https://www.newstatesman.com/busines...river-shortage

[Andy_Faber]

‘Even idealistic rA’. Lol!
Yes I may be ‘idealistic’ about somethings...and what’s wrong with that?

About some things, nothing. Same here

Brexit however is not one of them. I’m a hard bitten realist where Brexit is concerned

Brexit happened. You won’t accept it. Therefore you can’t be a realist in that issue. Without criticising your stance, I applaud those millions of remain voters who’s thought on the morning of 24th June 2016 was ‘oh dear. But let’s get on with making a success of the new reality’

a web of lies

On both sides. and led by a guy who has clearly now emerged as as close to being a crook as possible while not being a crook

Noticeable that neither you nor Tricky have responded to Swale’s challenge to provide an example of a positive to come out of Brexit

I listed a number of benefits accruing to friends of mine since Brexit, I expected you to ignore them and Swale to either ignore them or launch into a rant about them, which is your respective style and which came to pass

TTR has remained silent

LOL!

the implications for the country of the lorry driver shortage.

Which the whole U.K. media is now reporting more even handedly as being due to many factors of which Brexit is one, and apparently not the main one

your defence of Brexit

Exists only in respect of it being a fact, and my commitment to bloody get on with things thereafter

Now...about those positives, AF/TTR/anyone at all...you were about to say?

Of my immediate circle of friends none have yet seen any discernible change and I can update my earlier comment that that includes travel. Maybe MA can confirm whether his travel into/out of U.K. recently although as dual national he may not be a good example. Mrs F and I certainly noticed no difference getting from U.K. to Greece, in fact the Corfu border control was quicker because the queue is now split more evenly between EU and non EU. One of my friends has found trade with Turkey and China easier, two in NHS have seen a load reduction in Eastern European patients who’s culture is to bring the whole family into hospital, I have more anecdotal evidence but won’t bore you with it. Now I don’t pretend for one sec that there aren’t problems but ‘it’s a mix’

See above

[MadAmster]

As I was travelling with one of my lads I travelled on my Dutch passport so we could use the same lanes and not have one of us possibly having to wait for the other.

That didn't help at Brum though, Used the automatic PP readers, I got the "try again" message 3 or 4 times and then the message "please ask for assistance". I was invited to try a different machine and that worked first time. Apart from that technical issue there were no issues at either end apart from having to show various extra things like Passenger Locator Form, Health declaration, proof of vaccination and a negative test result when leaving Holland yet only a negative test result when leaving the UK.

[ramAnag]

Strange bit of quoting, AF...but I’ll do my best.
Taking your final paragraph first...I accept you’ve made those points before. Not certain they’re an entirely objective defence of Brexit for the following reasons.
So anecdotally your friend is finding it easier to deal with China and Turkey...but how does that begin to compensate for the increased complications involved in dealing with our more natural EU neighbours?
As regards the NHS...at this stage it has obviously been impacted far more by Covid than Brexit. My own experience is that, vaccinations apart, our local GP’s practice is shambolic compared with the pre Brexit/Covid era but I’m NOT blaming the former for that. Equally the alleged Eastern European practice you refer to will have been restricted by Covid protocol not Brexit.ö
Concerning travel...I hope to let you know in a couple of weeks.

Returning to earlier in your post, I’m not sure who you’re referring to as ‘close to a crook’...but you and TTR repeatedly throw out the accusation that I won’t ‘accept’ it.
I don’t understand that. Of course I ‘accept’ it...I have no choice...**** happens and Brexit has happened...but accepting that something has happened doesn’t mean we cease to question it does it?
Surely that is the point...the subject of this thread, Brexit, represents a huge change for both this country and our European neighbours.
In your opinion we should now just get on with it and make the most of it. A fair and not unreasonable stance.
In Tricky’s opinion we should all celebrate our new found freedom and Brexit should not be judged until long after we’re dead and our children have retired, which is, imo, utterly ridiculous.
In my opinion, and probably that of all responsible Remainers...of course we have to get on with the situation that has been created, but we have to challenge and acknowledge the difficulties presented by Brexit and ask whether this is really what people understood they were voting for in the referendum of 2016 and the election in 2019.
It’s called holding people to account and is, imo, an essential feature of democracy.

[Andy_Faber]

Strange bit of quoting, AF.
Taking your final paragraph first...I accept you’ve made those points before. Not certain they’re an entirely objective defence of Brexit for the following reasons.
So anecdotally your friend is finding it easier to deal with China and Turkey...but how does that begin to compensate for the increased complications involved in dealing with our more natural EU neighbours?

Concerning travel...I hope to let you know in a couple of weeks.

Returning to earlier in your post, I’m not sure who you’re referring to as ‘close to a crook’...

Sorry about the reply format, rubbish internet here required it at the time

You asked for POSITIVES, that’s what I offered. If you want a more balanced view, please say. Nice at least that my repeat wasn’t ignored this time

MA has offered some insight re travel

Showing my evenhandedness, the (alleged) crook was Cameron

[ramAnag]

Sorry about the reply format, rubbish internet here required it at the time

You asked for POSITIVES, that’s what I offered. If you want a more balanced view, please say. Nice at least that my repeat wasn’t ignored this time

MA has offered some insight re travel

Showing my evenhandedness, the (alleged) crook was Cameron

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

[Andy_Faber]

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

I’m trying not to turn into TTR here

1 you asked for positives

2. As described, Brexit not Covid related. Like you, I’m not a liar and neither are my two friends, one of whom has been tempted back to NHS for this very reason (I will add that certain social groups are equally guilty IHO)

3. We’ll have to agree to differ. My anecdote about Corfu border control may not apply elsewhere but the impact appears negligible especially when compared to the restrictions imposed around 9/11

You won’t win on the driver shortage, even BBC have now backed off on it being the major issue

Other than that we agree!

[Andy_Faber]

And on the subject of Covid tests, in Greece lateral flow tests are £20 whereas in U.K. they are free so I guess it’s swings and roundabouts

[ramAnag]

Andy...not for one moment am I referring to either you or your two friends as ‘liars’ and I really don’t understand that comment.

I am simply saying that an increase in the ease of trade with the two nations you mention isn’t really a ‘POSITIVE’ if there is a simultaneous increase in the complexity of trade with the EU nations as a direct result of Brexit.
Similarly it is impossible to judge the impact of Brexit on the NHS because, thus far, the far greater impact of the pandemic has covered the same time frame.
I’m not trying to ‘win’ on the HGV front and I genuinely wish the problem didn’t exist, however the following three statements are all true.
1) There is a shortage of HGV drivers throughout Europe and elsewhere.
2) The shortage is described as being more acute in the UK.
3) That shortage has been exacerbated by Brexit as a result of the exodus of foreign workers. (The same applies to more seasonal occupations too.)
4) The aforementioned shortage is likely to lead to an increase in the cost of many goods, including food, and that increase is significantly (NOT entirely) attributable to Brexit.

You and TTR repeatedly insist that I won’t ‘accept’ Brexit. That’s nonsense...I have no choice. It does seem to me however that the two of you (he more so than you) simply refuse to accept the downsides and are struggling to demonstrate any benefits.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

**** me, are you still nickel and diming over the cost of travel post brexit and/or covid. I wonder how much these tests would have cost if we'd still been in the EU Actually no I dont, just deal with it, but if you are so hard up that the UK test costs more than an EU one, send me your bank detail and I will give you the difference.

To set this in context, long ago, pre Brexit, I could but a pint in Greece for £ 2 when it was £ 4 in UK. Was that due to the EU - no, its just that within or without an economic union the cost of goods and the wage levels are different. End of.