May loses again by 149

[mickd1961]

If only it were that simple...

Problem is that you are so hung up on 'leaving' you don't even care about the terms of how we leave.

As I say, there is no mandate for a no deal Brexit. I expect Art 50 will be extended.

Fingers crossed it will be revoked all together.

There must be some Leavers reading this who hold leading Brexiteers to account?? Anyone?

It seems obvious from your comments that you’ve never been involved in a business meeting.

The two cards you don’t give up are the ability to walk away and the threat of not paying an amicable severance payment ( £39 Billion )

I’d love to know what field it is you’re employed in and how old you are?

Just for transparency I’m 57 and I’ve run my own business for 22 years and 50% of my trade is with Europe.

I’ve been at work for 41 years almost and every one of my working days has involved being involved in the commercial world where I’ve had to negotiate with people.

A small amount of background about you would be appreciated?

[stripes39]

If only it were that simple...

Problem is that you are so hung up on 'leaving' you don't even care about the terms of how we leave.

As I say, there is no mandate for a no deal Brexit. I expect Art 50 will be extended.

Fingers crossed it will be revoked all together.

There must be some Leavers reading this who hold leading Brexiteers to account?? Anyone?

Errr..no. The majority of those involved in negotiating our withdrawal were not Brexiteers.

May's done an appalling job of negotiating Brexit starting off with running secret parallel negotiations through Remainers like civil servants Olly Robbins who was woeful in his dealings with Europe and blindsiding her own EU Minister David Davis and Steve Baker.

Remainers have undermined the process throughout and directly led to the situation of such an awful deal being offered.

Remain MPs who are the big majority along with people like Blair holding blindsided talks in parallel with Europe is what has encouraged the EU to posture as they have done. Ultimately though the EU need our money and access to our market. It just shows the ineptitude of so many of our useless career politicians that they would consider taking the no deal option off the table. Anyone who has negotiated anything significant knows full well that you do not remove your strongest options off the table even if you do not plan to use them as it severely weakens your position. Sadly, so many MP's do not understand his never having held jobs in the real world.

It just shows how disingenuous so many of our political classes are with the constant mud slinging when the fact is that 90% of MP's voted to have a referendum having debated the process that would be put to the country. They knew what they were voting for. So ALL parties are culpable for this mess we are in. It was also the same MP's who twice voted legislation in that included leaving on March 29 with no deal and now they look likely to do a U-Turn and demand we don't leave without a deal. Corbyn in the meantime can only talk about a general election at the first opportunity. You could not make it up.

[stripes39]

Any notion of any blame here to the people who fed you and continue to feed you lies?

I'm talking Davies, Fox, Gove, Rees-Mogg and most of all that odious lying runt that is Farage.

Have they got a coherent, joined up plan? If so, I haven't heard it.

Anyone who says 'Leave with no deal' does not understand international trade. Nor is this democracy, all 17m people did not vote to leave without a deal.

Uncertainty is killing business all over the country, if you're only 20% down you're doing well.

Also, Parliament is sovereign. This is what our constitution is built upon. Whatever Parliament decide IS democracy. Not an advisory referendum which provides no mandate for any designated Leave vote.

We need another referendum. There are too many interpretations of a leave vote.

Parliament will remain deadlocked because they have no mandate to implement anything. Especially something which will make us worse off. And for that, you should blame Brexiteers.

Two questions if you please?

Were there another referendum and Leave won it again, what would your stance be then?

You constantly pick up on posters claiming they are using biassed information as the basis of their opinions. What are your unbiassed sources? Care to share?

[WBA123]

It seems obvious from your comments that you’ve never been involved in a business meeting.

The two cards you don’t give up are the ability to walk away and the threat of not paying an amicable severance payment ( £39 Billion )

I’d love to know what field it is you’re employed in and how old you are?

Just for transparency I’m 57 and I’ve run my own business for 22 years and 50% of my trade is with Europe.

I’ve been at work for 41 years almost and every one of my working days has involved being involved in the commercial world where I’ve had to negotiate with people.

A small amount of background about you would be appreciated?

Okay, I don't tend to shout it about because we all have opinions on here and I don't want it to seem like I'm any kind of expert, because I'm not. But some viewpoints on here are misinformed IMO.

I'm mid-late 30's. I went to a fairly good university where I studied Law and Economics.

I've been working in international trade and supply chain for 15+ years, since I have left University. I've negotiated with large multi-national businesses, at home and abroad, including pharmaceutical and automotive manufacturers. The information I am receiving from both sectors is that Brexit has so far been very damaging to them and will be to the UK.

I'm London based, but I've travelled with work to the United States, Middle East, Far East and across most of Europe.

I'm no expert on Brexit, but I believe I've got a fairly good amount of knowledge on EU Law, the Customs Union, the Single Market, global and domestic economics. I've got a great knowledge of supply chain and international trade.

My angle is that negotiation is about understanding each others point of view and coming to an agreement for which both sides are happy. Its not about threatening to do something which would be nonsensical. Leaving with no deal is nonsensical, but then that is what politics is right now.

It baffles me that 50% of your trade is with the EU, yet you want to make it more difficult to trade with them? Do you mind me asking if your business is reliant on JIT manufacturing? Or if you are a customer of or supplier to the EU (or both)?

Also, I'd be keen to know if you felt that your business wouldn't be affected before the vote? And now that it has been, whether you place any responsibility for this on Leave supporting politicians?

I tend to be neutral in my UK business meetings but the vast majority of the feedback I get is that business uncertainty is crippling us right now. Most Europeans (Or non Europeans even) who I'm dealing with believe Brexit is a case of self-harm, I can't help but agree...

[WBA123]

Two questions if you please?

Were there another referendum and Leave won it again, what would your stance be then?

You constantly pick up on posters claiming they are using biassed information as the basis of their opinions. What are your unbiassed sources? Care to share?

If Leave won again and there was a clear mandate. I.e. every leave voter voted in favour of a no deal then of course I would respect it. But I would still want us to remain a member of the EU. I would still vote for parties who would want to take us back into the EU. Democracy is about different opinions, just because the Leave vote won the last referendum it shouldn't shut down debate on what is best for the country.

My sources are news sources who promote themselves as impartial and academic based research groups who are transparent about their funding.

[WBA123]

Errr..no. The majority of those involved in negotiating our withdrawal were not Brexiteers.

May's done an appalling job of negotiating Brexit starting off with running secret parallel negotiations through Remainers like civil servants Olly Robbins who was woeful in his dealings with Europe and blindsiding her own EU Minister David Davis and Steve Baker.

Remainers have undermined the process throughout and directly led to the situation of such an awful deal being offered.

Remain MPs who are the big majority along with people like Blair holding blindsided talks in parallel with Europe is what has encouraged the EU to posture as they have done. Ultimately though the EU need our money and access to our market. It just shows the ineptitude of so many of our useless career politicians that they would consider taking the no deal option off the table. Anyone who has negotiated anything significant knows full well that you do not remove your strongest options off the table even if you do not plan to use them as it severely weakens your position. Sadly, so many MP's do not understand his never having held jobs in the real world.

It just shows how disingenuous so many of our political classes are with the constant mud slinging when the fact is that 90% of MP's voted to have a referendum having debated the process that would be put to the country. They knew what they were voting for. So ALL parties are culpable for this mess we are in. It was also the same MP's who twice voted legislation in that included leaving on March 29 with no deal and now they look likely to do a U-Turn and demand we don't leave without a deal. Corbyn in the meantime can only talk about a general election at the first opportunity. You could not make it up.

'Political Class'
You must mean people like Rees-Mogg and Farage right?

The problem I have, is that Brexit is a sh1tshow and was always likely to be one. All that Brexiteers are doing now are blaming remainers. There is no plan. They have come up with nothing.

You wanted to leave the EU, May's deal does that. So I'm confused why it has so much opposition. Its time to look in the mirror for all Leave voters, you have been lied to on a mass scale by charlatans like Johnson and Farage. Who still have nothing better to offer the country than what May did.

Truthfully, if there was a leave option available that was better than the option of remaining in the EU, why haven't parliament voted for it?

The answer is quite simple, there isn't one.

[stripes39]

'Political Class'
You must mean people like Rees-Mogg and Farage right?

Wrong. By political class I meant politicians across the board if you read what I wrote. The mess we are in is not down to one or two or a few individuals. Sometimes it pays to try and look at things objectively without political bias. I’ve already said that Mays handling of this has been woeful but so has Labours. They’ve no clear policy, just a raft of contradictions and sound bites with most of their own supporters not knowing what their policy is on Brexit. If ever we needed strong credible opposition it is now but sadly Jezza, McDonnel, Thornbury and Abbott et al are none of these. My point was a vast majority across the board collectively voted for a referendum and twice to have a no deal option included for deadline day. They are all culpable for creating this mess

[Leicesterbaggie]

Apparently, Kenneth Clarke and Keith Vaz want to place an amendment to revoke Article 50 full stop. I know little of Kenneth Clarke personally, but as for Vaz, what an odious little man! When I was Head of Year 7 he came to our school to talk to the year group and kept 180 pupils waiting for what seemed an age, was unprepared and talked a load of drivel and was only interested with the publicity that the photoshoot would supply him with. I went straight to the Head and told him never to let that man cross the school threshold again. This is the standard of politician that we have to endure. No wonder we are in the mess that we find ourselves in.

[bordering]

If Brexit is not implemted, I cannot speak for the rest of the country, but as far as I am concerned I cannot envisage myself ever voting again. What's the point as my vote will be meaningless, unless I vote for right party? Here's your chance Jezza!!

Please please go and vote so many have given their all for your right to vote

So GO BUT SPOIL your vote- write none of these or anything else

Do not let the political class believe they have a mandate

It was a stitch up - May & 75% of MPs want to remain & today's NO DEAL vote shows their true colours and their negotiating incompetence.

Any referendum will be 2 choices May's deal- rejected by everyone or staying in EU- ok if you want to tick either box but me I'll be going & SPOILING MY VOTE

Think we are seeing the meltdown of 2 parties and the rise of a variety of far ledt & far right splinter groups- fuellwd by highly effective social media canpaigns

[mickd1961]

Okay, I don't tend to shout it about because we all have opinions on here and I don't want it to seem like I'm any kind of expert, because I'm not. But some viewpoints on here are misinformed IMO.

I'm mid-late 30's. I went to a fairly good university where I studied Law and Economics.

I've been working in international trade and supply chain for 15+ years, since I have left University. I've negotiated with large multi-national businesses, at home and abroad, including pharmaceutical and automotive manufacturers. The information I am receiving from both sectors is that Brexit has so far been very damaging to them and will be to the UK.

I'm London based, but I've travelled with work to the United States, Middle East, Far East and across most of Europe.

I'm no expert on Brexit, but I believe I've got a fairly good amount of knowledge on EU Law, the Customs Union, the Single Market, global and domestic economics. I've got a great knowledge of supply chain and international trade.

My angle is that negotiation is about understanding each others point of view and coming to an agreement for which both sides are happy. Its not about threatening to do something which would be nonsensical. Leaving with no deal is nonsensical, but then that is what politics is right now.

It baffles me that 50% of your trade is with the EU, yet you want to make it more difficult to trade with them? Do you mind me asking if your business is reliant on JIT manufacturing? Or if you are a customer of or supplier to the EU (or both)?

Also, I'd be keen to know if you felt that your business wouldn't be affected before the vote? And now that it has been, whether you place any responsibility for this on Leave supporting politicians?

I tend to be neutral in my UK business meetings but the vast majority of the feedback I get is that business uncertainty is crippling us right now. Most Europeans (Or non Europeans even) who I'm dealing with believe Brexit is a case of self-harm, I can't help but agree...

My business is internet based retailing.

I fully expected a downturn in business in 2016 after Brexit was announced,I expected to lose around 20% of turnover and in the first few weeks after the vote that was borne out.

Then very quickly,and surprisingly to me,business rocketed and we ended the year around 15% up compared to 2015 and we then grew by 20% in 2017 and the same again in 2018 both here and across Europe with Germany and France seeing even stronger growth.

However,over the last few weeks,due to indecision and uncertainty we are down by 15-20% per day on our 2018 figures so in effect back to 2017’s turnover.

It’s clear to me that back just after the vote and over the last few weeks the thing causing the problem is UNCERTAINTY and NOT the fact we’re departing.

With respect,if you’re 37 years old ( same age as my son in law ) you can’t see this in the same perspective as us older ones who were living as ****agers and older in the 70’s.

We joined the EEC to make trading easier,that’s what my mum and dad voted for.

The country did not vote for anything other than a common marketplace.....that’s what you don’t seem to get.

20 odd years ago my dad warned me we would end up with one huge federal state due to treaties our idiots were signing up to.....the public never got asked about Maastricht and the like.

I have no doubt the initial months and first year or two will be challenging but we are British and we’ve always had backbone up until recent times,without us the Germans would be ruling Europe lock stock and barrel.

I went to Australia in January and saw a country that has a strong identity.

I asked a lot of Aussies about their philosophy and what they thought of Brexit.

Their opinion is that they like the way that with their constitution the feeling is that if you don’t like what we’re are and what we stand for then you can “do one”,they don’t back down.

They think we should stand on our own two feet,that’s my feeling too.

Too much unelected dog wagging sovereign tail for too long.

WTO rules will make things much harder for a period but I’ll live with that.