O/T:- Impressed with the leadership

[SwalePie]

A quick analysis from The Guardian a few days ago...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/16/what-do-we-know-about-people-who-died-covid-uk

[SaltySeaDog]

We're talking about NHS staff here who have a duty of care to their patients. If they had taken all reasonable and available steps to be safe then I have nothing I can sue them for. If they failed to take all reasonable and available steps then in my view they would have acted negligently. If they won't take the reasonable and available steps they should move out of patient facing work.

Fair enough Old Pie, I see your point.

This is however what I feared could happen, a polarised and highly emotive subject, as with Brexit, that divides people and communities.

In my eyes to even think to sue someone who didn't take the vaccine is crazy. These people also have a duty of care for their own body & health, and if they believe the vaccine for whatever reasons doesn't sit right, then surely they have the right to take that choice.

I'm sure there were lots of people out there that had the vaccines, but didn't act responsibly and spread covid. Just as there were probably lots of people that didn't take the vaccine, that took all reasonable precautions (in their eyes) to act in a responsible manner.

It's not a black and white picture, so we should try to see the nuances on both sides (and that includes me seeing where you are coming from!). Many of these staff were applauded for working through the most difficult parts of this pandemic, and are now being put under a lot of pressure, and pilloried for making a different choice.

The data coming out at the moment (as shown in the relaxing of guidelines & rules) is suggesting that covid may just become something we learn to live with, as with the flu. So if a very high percentage of adults have been vaccinated, and/or carry natural immunity, why do we have to attack the small percentage that chose a different path, and that may not actually be causing any harm to anyone?

[Old_pie]

UK Dr John Campbell, pro vaccine and pro safety measures, discussing the recent freedom of information revelation......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UHvwWWcjYw

Basically the total UK deaths solely due to Covid 2019-to 3Q 2021 (not with or with other major health issues).
17,500

He's clearly very surprised how low that figure actually is.

Just under 30,000 died of Influenza-Pneumonia in the UK in 2018 and 26,000 in 2019.

I'm just very glad to be living in England and not a whole bunch of countries still suffering this mass derangement right now, but obviously concerned what might be coming next, not least inflation levels.

Basically he waffles and doesn't have a good grasp on figures nor cause and effect.

He also has made a couple of noticeable booboos recently, see the Covid-19 Misinformation section on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C..._and_education

That is not to say there are no valid issues but how many surprises are there really that we didn't know:

1) The young and healthy were always known to be less susceptible, that's why the vaccination roll-out started with the old and vulnerable

2) 1) The old and vulnerable were always known to be more susceptible, that's why the vaccination roll-out started with them and then worked down through the age groups

3) What would the figures have been had there been no action? Answers on a postcard - better, worse or the same?

4) Less people died in a period where we had lockdowns. Surprise surprise, less flu and other transmissible diseases spread around.

5) Less people are dying now after a massive vaccination program.

It is very easy to look back and say what happened. The problem was that it was necessary to look forward and predict and take action. We can't even with any certainty predict tonight's result v Barnet, and definitely a high degree of uncertainty whether we'll get promoted. But somehow some people seem to want to intimate that a better job should have been done with a new disease and spreadable disease.

I do hope that this whole experience does wake up the government to the needs of not running the NHS at an extreme limit. All of the emergency services need some slack in the system to - well - meet emergencies.

[upthemaggies]

Obviously any deaths from cancer/covid are tragic, but some very interesting figures there UTM. @17,500 deaths from covid alone but an excess of @50,000 cancer deaths in the same period if I'm understanding it correctly.

I should add that the average age of those Covid deaths was 82.5, higher than the average age of UK deaths overall.

I remember watching another doctor at the start of vaccine roll outs claiming that they will eventually need a new word to replace "vaccine" as it will be such an unmitigated disaster in the long run that the word will be discredited to the point nobody will even trust the traditional vaccines anymore.
Time will tell.

Curiously, both the Russians and Chinese apparently went with the most traditional forms of vaccines for Covid. You have to ask why, when we were faced with such an "emergency" with the need to roll out a Vax ASAP, the west decided to go with untested experimental technology. AZ was different tech to Pfier and Modena, but AZ seems to have been quietly buried now as too risky and it looks as though Moderna will go the same way, basically having more 'stuff' in it that Pfizer and therefore revealing the damage more obviously and earlier. Worrying though that Pfizer strength is being shown to be different by batch codes, which must be deliberate.

[SaltySeaDog]

My friend it's all there in the link, total pop 84% fully vaccinated, 11,570,076

I could not care less what you make of it, or what you think i make of it, it was addressed to Salty.

Thanks Mac. My dms are always open!

[SaltySeaDog]

The CDC begins to acknowledge reality, one small step at a time.

https://reuters.com/business/healthc...us-2022-01-19/


Disinformation, n.: 1. True information shared by unofficial sources released before it is recognized by the official narrative. 2. (Archaic) False information intended to deceive.

I see Belgium have pulled Moderna for young men as they now recognise the damage being done.

It does say however that the best protection was from both a vaccine and prior infection. But yes that natural immunity was better than the vaccine

Yeah, there has been a big spike in young male deaths that is being investigated. I hope they find the answer whatever it may be

[drillerpie]

UK Dr John Campbell, pro vaccine and pro safety measures, discussing the recent freedom of information revelation......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UHvwWWcjYw

Basically the total UK deaths solely due to Covid 2019-to 3Q 2021 (not with or with other major health issues).
17,500

He's clearly very surprised how low that figure actually is.

Just under 30,000 died of Influenza-Pneumonia in the UK in 2018 and 26,000 in 2019.

I'm just very glad to be living in England and not a whole bunch of countries still suffering this mass derangement right now, but obviously concerned what might be coming next, not least inflation levels.

I like the guy in the video. He seems very reasonable and avoids hyperbole.

The statistic in question is clearly very interesting. I think we all already knew the general gist of what it illustrates (Covid is most dangerous for older people with pre-existing medical conditions) but to see it spelled out like that will rightly raise questions.

A few points I would like to make:

I don't know if the comparisons with previous flu seasons are accurate, as they too may contain deaths from flu+pre-existing conditions. It's also possible they don't, but it would be good to know before engaging in comparisons.

It would also be good to see the same stats (age/pre-existing medical conditions) for people who were hospitalised and hospitalised in intensive care, as I think this is a key point. I remember bringing this up in my debate with Jackal at the very start of the pandemic. Leaving aside the whole issue of media sensationalism, which I actually agree with, from a government's point of view, they have to evacuate the impact on hospitals, which then impacts on society in general, if there is no functioning emergency healthcare system.

In any case I am still quite sympathetic to the dilemma governments found themselves in, especially at the beginning of the pandemic when there were a lot of unknowns, but this statistic does raise some important questions and deserves more coverage than it is getting IMO.

[upthemaggies]

I like the guy in the video. He seems very reasonable and avoids hyperbole.

.

Yes, I watched him on a daily basis at the start of the pandemic. He was very concerned for Africa and expected it to be worse there than anywhere, once it took hold, but for some reason it's been the least affected continent of all as far as we can tell. Well, except for Antarctica perhaps.

Over on my side of the fence, it's interesting to see now how around half of the UK sceptics are celebrating that it's finally over and the other half are bracing themselves for phase 2, with some expecting this to be a shift away from the pandemic to climate change measures - power cuts and shortages and others believing it's going to be a war of some sort.

[macstop]

Yes, I watched him on a daily basis at the start of the pandemic. He was very concerned for Africa and expected it to be worse there than anywhere, once it took hold, but for some reason it's been the least affected continent of all as far as we can tell. Well, except for Antarctica perhaps.

Over on my side of the fence, it's interesting to see now how around half of the UK sceptics are celebrating that it's finally over and the other half are bracing themselves for phase 2, with some expecting this to be a shift away from the pandemic to climate change measures - power cuts and shortages and others believing it's going to be a war of some sort.

If you look at Doctor Johns last video, top comment is mine asking John to take a look at the ONS report, don't know if he took my advice or found it for himself, anyway what great video he put together and i loved the section at the end with regards to cancer deaths.

[Riverleeno]

We're talking about NHS staff here who have a duty of care to their patients. If they had taken all reasonable and available steps to be safe then I have nothing I can sue them for. If they failed to take all reasonable and available steps then in my view they would have acted negligently. If they won't take the reasonable and available steps they should move out of patient facing work.

After vaccines became available ( I presume you're not waiting for the government mandate to come into effect to keep yourself safe? ) have you carried a card or told your relatives that - so that if you had the misfortune to suffer a heart attack or be bleeding to death after a nasty DIY accident - you would refuse treatment from an unvaccinated first responder/ nurse/ surgeon. Obviously you would not want to catch COVID off them in that situation and would be happy to wait for the next paramedic or on-call surgeon.