resurgence of trade unions?

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Firstly I didn't say the gains were outdated I said the unions were. Just because they were effective back then (or ineffective where their actions resulted in job losses) doesn't mean they will be as effective now.

Secondly my background is in manufacturing and O&G so my experiences might be completely different to yours and others'.

Many of the hard fought gains of the past belong there; society has moved on. Public holidays for example are more and more just not recognised with an additional flexi day to use as you see fit put in their place. This stops the facility having to shut down on specified days. The worst case example of this would be the trades fortnight which very few employers recognise these days and removal of which gives the employee much more flexibility with their time off.

Health and safety is not a union responsibility it's a legal responsibility that employers must comply with. Maybe the unions were part of its implementation originally but these days employers must look after the H&S of employees and most will put a specialist in the position of HSE Manager / Advisor. The ones that don't employ such a person will likely use a sub contractor to advise them. Many companies have H&S committees on which union reps will sit, this is only a committee and is not responsible for implementation although obviously they can suggest or recommend. Where there are no unions within a company it's nominated employees that will sit on the committee doing exactly what the union rep would do. When something goes tragically wrong it's the MD that goes to jail not the union rep or the H&S committee.

Acceptable working conditions (physical) are again a legal requirement. Any employee that feels their working conditions are unsafe or detrimental to their health can report this to the HSE who have the power to issue notices that will force employers to improve conditions or risk temporary or total close down.

Employment conditions and pay. Sorry but when you're offered a job you know the pay and conditions such as pension and holiday entitlement, you sign as accepting them and enter a contract with an employer. I don't have time for anyone that accepts a role at a rate then complains that the pay and conditions aren't acceptable. Wouldn't be the first time I've asked someone 'well you accepted them so why are they suddenly unacceptable'? Tends to shut them up.

Temp workers are something I haven't encountered much so won't comment on.

There are still apprenticeships available. Difference now is that you don't have to be six**** and straight out of school with six 'O' Levels to get one so in fact are more inclusive. It's a question I always ask prospective suppliers to the company I work for, it costs them almost nothing to take on an apprentice and failure to do so shows an incredible lack of foresight in my opinion and will lower my opinion of them.

Again I've no experience of zero hour contracts so won't comment other than to say these are allowed by government and employers are going to take advantage. The issue lies further up the food chain than employers and I doubt unions could do much more than take membership fees from people on theses contracts when they fall under their remit.

The doctor thing's a difficult one to address. I've never had a problem with people going to the doctor in work time but I know that a lot of managers do. My doctor surgery is (normally) open for consultation from 8am to 6pm Monday to Friday and I think they'll see you on a Saturday morning if you really can't make it midweek. They also do telephone consultations which is something I've used myself many times. So I can't really see why anyone would be making an appointment at an appropriate time for a routine consultation. If the condition is so bad that they need to get to the doctor immediately they really shouldn't be at work.

I agree ref. the 'what's in it for me' part. Unions would have a place (my opinion) if they worked with employers rather than against them and only for the benefit of full time union officials who have no interest in the employees but only in lining their own pockets.

The work place is a hugely safer place due to health and safety legislation. A workplace with union representation is not necessarily any safer than one without.

ok my apols as i read your post wrong,however i genuinely dont know any youngster in an apprenticeship,would love to know the numbers that attended kingsway tech in the 70's and 80's compared to present day numbers,

however it wouldnt be surprising seeing as a city we have lost levi's/holo chrome/mitchy/ncr/timex/bonar long/veeder root/mcgills/valentines/coke cola/the docks vastly reduced/briggs/a b nitran/kestrel/delta/betts?/galloways/stewarts cream of the barley/not to mention the jute mills,we appear to have replaced heavy industry with supermarkets,and asda etc dont need apprentices

[BCram]

ok my apols as i read your post wrong,however i genuinely dont know any youngster in an apprenticeship,would love to know the numbers that attended kingsway tech in the 70's and 80's compared to present day numbers,

however it wouldnt be surprising seeing as a city we have lost levi's/holo chrome/mitchy/ncr/timex/bonar long/veeder root/mcgills/valentines/coke cola/the docks vastly reduced/briggs/a b nitran/kestrel/delta/betts?/galloways/stewarts cream of the barley/not to mention the jute mills,we appear to have replaced heavy industry with supermarkets,and asda etc dont need apprentices

I have been very interested in this topic, more because of your continual references to apprenticeships. I think you are right that apprenticeships have been very poorly regarded by the continual pressure on schools to get kids into tertiary academic based courses rather than vocational ones. I suspect it is much easier to put a lecturer in front of a lecture hall with 100 students than to provide the teaching facilities in a trade based college. It's possibly cheaper too.
We need to get schools to go back to teaching a curriculum that helps those who want to take a vocational/practical route, and stop them writing off those kids who just don't see the relevance of history, French etc.
For me putting much more investment into the Further Education institutions would do far more to repair our society than carrying on as we are doing.
You also mentioned the demise of many manufacturing based local companies. Did something happen that stopped local companies getting construction jobs from the local council? Maybe there was something that stopped local companies like Charlie Grays and the other local builders from being successful when quoting for council work

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interesting points there bcram,and being honest a more in depth look at the potential reasons many of which i hadnt thought off tbh

from building houses alone there is char gray/betts/millars/cruden all disappeared from the city,so that equates to sparkies/joiners/roofers/brickies/plumbers apprentice opportunities severely impacted

[BCram]

interesting points there bcram,and being honest a more in depth look at the potential reasons many of which i hadnt thought off tbh

from building houses alone there is char gray/betts/millars/cruden all disappeared from the city,so that equates to sparkies/joiners/roofers/brickies/plumbers apprentice opportunities severely impacted

Someone will know what happened, it's just that this wasn't something that I had practical experience of. Bound to be guys on here who would have some idea. Just have to hope they read this topic.

[noahrab]

Someone will know what happened, it's just that this wasn't something that I had practical experience of. Bound to be guys on here who would have some idea. Just have to hope they read this topic.

Companies get merged and bought over.

Apprenticeships are still as much there as has ever been.

[shaded]

Companies get merged and bought over.

Apprenticeships are still as much there as has ever been.

noah,let me get this correct,are you saying apprentice numbers in Dundee are as high today as they were in the 1980's? if thats true then id be astounded