Get prepared for when football returns - Stock up on PPE now!
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Thread: OT. Schools...normality and Coronavirus.

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    Well I'll take the first part first, yes handling this crisis on a regional basis would be best, indeed local emergency planners have complained that its very centralised and there is insufficient information and poor communication from central government, who appear to be politically opposed to local government at precisely the time its needed and also worried about controlling the flow of information and how its presented. Not very successfully as the backlash from devolved countries and local authorities has shown.

    There is much dispute about the calculation of the R figure, scientifically as it depends upon the quality of the data and may not be that useful in the control of the virus anyway - its too complicated to explain here. However its irrelevant in the case of children as the current information is that they are neither major spreaders or affected by the virus.

    Another point about R is that actually we need the virus to spread, to increase the percentage of the population who have it in order to get back to normal life!

    Again there is a misconception that the lockdown was about stopping infection per se, when in fact its designed to stop a large number of cases occurring at the same time and overwhelming the NHS, that has been successful and planning beyond that the only way forward is to have the resources to deal with infected people and track and test.

    This virus isn't going away but unless its very different from other coronaviruses, immunity will build up and it will become something we live like flu.

    OK so 250,000 infections is artificially low, firstly because its suspected that the figure is most likely double that - a lot of people have been asymptomatic, so not aware they have had it, others have had it but its not being confirmed by testing.

    Conversely the death rate could well be exaggerated, many thousands of people were dying of something else have been attributed on death certificates to Covid-19 when there has been no test to confirm. It has been admitted by Government scientists that there is considerable overlap between deaths from flu and Covid-19, so its a moot point about how many additional people have died from Covid-19 who wouldn't have died anyway. But lets be generous and say 20,000.

    So a virus that kills 36,000 (last time I looked that was over 30K but hey ho) in one year, is worse than continuous factors which could be addressed that kills an average 30,000 every year - I'm talking excess winter deaths due to respiratory diseases, poor diet, poor housing and air pollution, deaths that could be avoided if action was taken. Whilst obviously its worse than driving that injures or kills over 6,000 every year? Flu kills around 17,000 every year.

    So even though all the evidence shows that children are not at risk (unless classed as vulnerable due to health reasons), that they do not on current evidence act as major spreaders of Covid-19 and that teachers are certainly at lower risk in their job of infection, than the thousands of workers who meet and deal with hundreds of different people everyday, you feel that they should not return to work?

    Bear in mind that the thousands of people who have had to work, often having to travel by public transport, have not actually suffered significant levels of death or illness either (I'm not suggesting that any death is not tragic) so that the risk of working is clearly not at the level suggested.

    So whats your alternative? That everyone who works should be able to choose whether or not they go back to work? How exactly is that going to be paid for?

    Its very easy to take a risk averse approach if it costs one nothing to the individual to do so. In the current situation if your sick, or of an age considered vulnerable then the vast majority, can sit in their homes claim their pensions and protect themselves. However for the young and those at work a return to normal life (with suitable precautions) is essential as soon as possible for both their well being and the country's.
    Well that’s the first time I’ve seen it suggested that the ‘R’ needs to rise...and your ‘over 30k’ figure belittles the fact that the actual figure is now nearer 40k and not in ‘one year’...in just two and a half months!

    I honestly don’t understand how children aren’t similar spreaders to adults. Maybe, and only maybe, not via droplets, but this is allegedly a virus which can be spread via clothing, possessions and skin. These children go home, and possibly elsewhere, every evening.

    My ‘alternative’ is that the return to schools is staged via regions and the appropriateness of certain schools and classrooms with teachers having access to proper PPE and TT&T being in place. There is no ‘one size fits all’ solution.

    Completely agree with your other post...#200

  2. #202
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    Teachers need similar PPE to shop workers then? Wouldn't the big astronaut suit type stuff make the kuds scared and communication difficult?

    I don't understand the logic of littluns not passing on either, but it seems valudated (Swale said so!). But consider this: they are low to the ground and so droplets get there with less opportunity to get at humans. Just a thought.... It might be as simple as that

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Teachers need similar PPE to shop workers then? Wouldn't the big astronaut suit type stuff make the kuds scared and communication difficult?

    I don't understand the logic of littluns not passing on either, but it seems valudated (Swale said so!). But consider this: they are low to the ground and so droplets get there with less opportunity to get at humans. Just a thought.... It might be as simple as that
    Haven’t seen any shop workers in ‘big astronaut suit type stuff’ tbh, GP.

    Think there’s a place for masks/face shields and possibly gloves at the least. Doesn’t seem too much to ask for those confined in a room with up to 16 others for a likely minimum of forty minute blocks. Masks may indeed make communication more difficult, but surgeons always seem to do okay and I could always understand the Lone Ranger...kemosabe.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Haven’t seen any shop workers in ‘big astronaut suit type stuff’ tbh, GP.

    Think there’s a place for masks/face shields and possibly gloves at the least. Doesn’t seem too much to ask for those confined in a room with up to 16 others for a likely minimum of forty minute blocks. Masks may indeed make communication more difficult, but surgeons always seem to do okay and I could always understand the Lone Ranger...kemosabe.
    I don't think a surgeon, needs to try to get everyone's undivided attention when he's working.
    If they aren't listening to him, they really shouldn't be there.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Well that’s the first time I’ve seen it suggested that the ‘R’ needs to rise...and your ‘over 30k’ figure belittles the fact that the actual figure is now nearer 40k and not in ‘one year’...in just two and a half months!

    I honestly don’t understand how children aren’t similar spreaders to adults. Maybe, and only maybe, not via droplets, but this is allegedly a virus which can be spread via clothing, possessions and skin. These children go home, and possibly elsewhere, every evening.

    My ‘alternative’ is that the return to schools is staged via regions and the appropriateness of certain schools and classrooms with teachers having access to proper PPE and TT&T being in place. There is no ‘one size fits all’ solution.

    Completely agree with your other post...#200
    Thats what the evidence suggests, nobody is sure why it doesn't affect them if they catch it, why the infection rate is low and hence they aren't spreaders.

    I think you worry to much about it spreading, the most likely way of transmission is directly from one person to another, the virus has to access your body through either your mouth, nose or eyes. hence why hand washing tends to stop it spreading. The main benefit of masks seems to be stopping you infecting others by containing any cough sneeze and saliva from your mouth.

    There is much we don't know but the fact that thousands of key workers have been in contact with thousands of people throughout the lock down and there haven't been large numbers of deaths does rather suggest that all a teacher requires is some basic PPE, good hygiene and social distancing from colleagues and pupils.

    Again schools were functioning up until the lock down when the virus was circulating, I've seen no figures that suggest that there has been a high infection rate amongst teachers?

    The fact is that unless a teacher has a health issue then the risk of them being badly affected by Covid-19 is slim on current evidence.

    The infection rate amongst the population has to increase if we are to be able to live with it, otherwise there will just be consecutive waves of high levels of infection. IF a vaccine is found, its going to be 18 months before its available there is no realistic prospect of us "hiding away" for that long unless your at risk.

    I'm still waiting for you to explain why teachers are in a worse position than other workers who will have to go back to work within the next month?

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    I don't think a surgeon, needs to try to get everyone's undivided attention when he's working.
    If they aren't listening to him, they really shouldn't be there.
    Gloves are pointless - just wash your hands. Masks stop you infecting others, but so does social distancing. No key workers are doing their jobs using full PPE!

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Teachers need similar PPE to shop workers then? Wouldn't the big astronaut suit type stuff make the kuds scared and communication difficult?

    I don't understand the logic of littluns not passing on either, but it seems valudated (Swale said so!). But consider this: they are low to the ground and so droplets get there with less opportunity to get at humans. Just a thought.... It might be as simple as that
    Its not me saying so, its what the current evidence is, and nobody seems to know why, its the same as why it tends not to be detrimental to most fit adults, though they can of course be spreaders.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    Gloves are pointless - just wash your hands. Masks stop you infecting others, but so does social distancing. No key workers are doing their jobs using full PPE!
    I’m not sure how familiar you are with classrooms, Swale, but ‘just wash your hands’ isn’t that easy. I’m not an expert on infant classrooms, having spent the vast majority of my career working with 13-16 year olds, but generally speaking Science and Art rooms should be equipped with sinks, the majority of others aren’t.

    Gloves aren’t useless. They may not be the height of PPE sophistication but they seem pretty ubiquitous in hospitals and when teachers have to touch children, books, pens, pencils, crayons, keyboards, touch screens etc they are a form of defence against the virus.

    Likewise masks are likely to become compulsory on public transport, whats’s the difference? Classrooms, like buses, trains and planes all have in common the collection of a number of people in a closed and confined space. A basic requirement for teachers and possibly pupils too,imo.

    Social distancing is very difficult in a classroom situation and some ‘key workers’ - those in the NHS at least - clearly are wearing full PPE...even though I’m not actually advocating ‘full PPE’ in schools

    I understand your anxiety over when the economic world can begin turning again and that the reopening of schools is ***** to that, but I cannot understand you being so obstructive where staff/pupil safety, and the avoidance of a second ‘wave’ is concerned.

    P.S. How come dentists have escaped the wrath of you, GP and Tricky? They downed tools almost straight away and aren’t showing any signs of reopening. I suppose they’re a bunch of self centred ******** too.
    Last edited by ramAnag; Yesterday at 08:31 AM.

  9. #209
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    It's the ftfth wave I'm worried about.
    Poor Chloe was really up against it.

    https://youtu.be/kmxLybfGNC4?t=18

  10. #210
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    The R rate is 0.5 in some places in the UK. It is above 1 in others like, but not limited to, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

    Surely, in places where R = >1 the schools should NOT go back. Ease restrictions where reasonable and sensible. Areas where R = >1 should say locked down.

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