OT. Schools...normality and Coronavirus.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I’m not sure how familiar you are with classrooms, Swale, but ‘just wash your hands’ isn’t that easy. I’m not an expert on infant classrooms, having spent the vast majority of my career working with 13-16 year olds, but generally speaking Science and Art rooms should be equipped with sinks, the majority of others aren’t.

Gloves aren’t useless. They may not be the height of PPE sophistication but they seem pretty ubiquitous in hospitals and when teachers have to touch children, books, pens, pencils, crayons, keyboards, touch screens etc they are a form of defence against the virus.

Likewise masks are likely to become compulsory on public transport, whats’s the difference? Classrooms, like buses, trains and planes all have in common the collection of a number of people in a closed and confined space. A basic requirement for teachers and possibly pupils too,imo.

Social distancing is very difficult in a classroom situation and some ‘key workers’ - those in the NHS at least - clearly are wearing full PPE...even though I’m not actually advocating ‘full PPE’ in schools

I understand your anxiety over when the economic world can begin turning again and that the reopening of schools is ***** to that, but I cannot understand you being so obstructive where staff/pupil safety, and the avoidance of a second ‘wave’ is concerned.

P.S. How come dentists have escaped the wrath of you, GP and Tricky? They downed tools almost straight away and aren’t showing any signs of reopening. I suppose they’re a bunch of self centred ******** too.

Dentists? Not sure how widespread this is but a friend of mine went to her local (NHS and private) dentist last week and was seen and referred to another dental practice for a procedure which happened Thursday. They had some unusual PPE I'm told but otherwise all went well.

So I'm not even going to point out the difference between getting into people's mouths and doing things inside them, and sitting at a desk socially distanced from your charges and periodically caning them! .

Perhaps my understanding of dentists being open is not reflective of national experience, but doesn't look like down tools to me.

[mistaram]

Dentists? Not sure how widespread this is but a friend of mine went to her local (NHS and private) dentist last week and was seen and referred to another dental practice for a procedure which happened Thursday. They had some unusual PPE I'm told but otherwise all went well.

So I'm not even going to point out the difference between getting into people's mouths and doing things inside them, and sitting at a desk socially distanced from your charges and periodically caning them! .

Perhaps my understanding of dentists being open is not reflective of national experience, but doesn't look like down tools to me.

25th of March The chief dental officer ( yes there is one ) told all dentists to cease work to help prevent Covid spread In emergency patient to go to A&E

[swaledale]

Dentists? Not sure how widespread this is but a friend of mine went to her local (NHS and private) dentist last week and was seen and referred to another dental practice for a procedure which happened Thursday. They had some unusual PPE I'm told but otherwise all went well.

So I'm not even going to point out the difference between getting into people's mouths and doing things inside them, and sitting at a desk socially distanced from your charges and periodically caning them! .

Perhaps my understanding of dentists being open is not reflective of national experience, but doesn't look like down tools to me.

At the moment most dentists are closed if not all, and they have set up hubs where special measure are in place to be able to treat dentists safely.

[ramAnag]

Dentists? Not sure how widespread this is but a friend of mine went to her local (NHS and private) dentist last week and was seen and referred to another dental practice for a procedure which happened Thursday. They had some unusual PPE I'm told but otherwise all went well.

So I'm not even going to point out the difference between getting into people's mouths and doing things inside them, and sitting at a desk socially distanced from your charges and periodically caning them! .

Perhaps my understanding of dentists being open is not reflective of national experience, but doesn't look like down tools to me.

Well let’s just accept that a lot more schools have been opened than dentists...that dentists routinely wear masks, goggles and sometimes visors, and teachers no longer perform from behind a socially distanced desk emerging only to ‘periodically cane’ miscreants.

[swaledale]

Well that’s the first time I’ve seen it suggested that the ‘R’ needs to rise...and your ‘over 30k’ figure belittles the fact that the actual figure is now nearer 40k and not in ‘one year’...in just two and a half months!

I honestly don’t understand how children aren’t similar spreaders to adults. Maybe, and only maybe, not via droplets, but this is allegedly a virus which can be spread via clothing, possessions and skin. These children go home, and possibly elsewhere, every evening.

My ‘alternative’ is that the return to schools is staged via regions and the appropriateness of certain schools and classrooms with teachers having access to proper PPE and TT&T being in place. There is no ‘one size fits all’ solution.

Completely agree with your other post...#200

RA I've already explained in many previous posts that what we are talking about is risk! Teachers doing their jobs would be no more and arguably less at risk than a number of other workers, the evidence shows that children aren't major sources of infection - there are currently thousands of workers out there who are in contact with hundreds of different people from all over the place on a daily basis, often not being fully able to social distance, a teacher is going to have contact with the same children from the same place on a daily is well able to social distance, indeed has more control than a health worker, a care worker a transport worker or a shop worker. NHS and care workers wear full PPE because they are repeatedly exposed to people infected with the virus, thats not going to be the case with a teacher!

On public transport, where your in close proximity to other people say on the tube, then masks may be appropriate, but it seems its more for confidence than for actual protection, I've explained above the usefulness of masks - one does have to differentiate between actions where its done as its seen to be a good thing and what in reality actually makes a difference!

Again you seem to have missed the bit where as long as you dont touch your mouth nose or eyes then the virus can't access your body and you can't be infected. Gloves are counter productive for ordinary use, a surgeon throws his PPE away or it goes into a bag untouched by him or her to be sterilised. You have to take your gloves off with your hands, wash them immediately, ensuring they don't touch any other surface in your house. Its simpler and less risky to just wash your hands as soon as you get inside or regularly when you are out. That is all thats required to keep you safe. A mask is some use, but according to most experts, it protects other from your spit etc., rather than protecting you, though it does mean you can't touch your mouth or nose accidentally.

You do not seem to be able to understand the concept of risk and you seem to have this idea that the virus is lurking all over the place wherever you touch. Yet its lifespan is limited even assuming that someone infected had touched a surface. Literally just washing ones hand regularly is the best protection.

I'm not being obstructive over teacher/pupil safety, I've explained repeatedly that the risks are low, we seem to be getting very uptight about this risk when we ignore others, though it seems you don't class them as serious risks! Which exactly makes my point, people seem to worry about risks that aren't that likely to happen to them, and worry about risks that are much more unlikely to happen and if they do not have a devastating effect on them.

Nor am I saying that appropriate measures shouldn't be put in place - lets see what Denmark is doing, that seems to be working well.

The Government has done a good job of scaring people ****less, again if people weren't being paid not to work, then they would be out and about pretty damn quickly!

I'm not having a go at teachers, thats just the example we are using, after all countless other workers are just returning to work and getting on with it albeit with appropriate measures in place to protect as far as possible.

[swaledale]

Well let’s just accept that a lot more schools have been opened than dentists...that dentists routinely wear masks, goggles and sometimes visors, and teachers no longer perform from behind a socially distanced desk emerging only to ‘periodically cane’ miscreants.

Well they might have to revise the way they work then! Not a return to caning obviously.

[Ram59]

Well let’s just accept that a lot more schools have been opened than dentists...that dentists routinely wear masks, goggles and sometimes visors, and teachers no longer perform from behind a socially distanced desk emerging only to ‘periodically cane’ miscreants.

I think with the new social distancing rules that caning will have to cease or maybe they could use the 2.4m long ones from my wife's veggie plot?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Teachers may need to learn new techniques from the lessons of sharia law in the time of covid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-pandemic.html

Apologies for reference to Daily Mail

[ramAnag]

RA I've already explained in many previous posts that what we are talking about is risk! Teachers doing their jobs would be no more and arguably less at risk than a number of other workers, the evidence shows that children aren't major sources of infection - there are currently thousands of workers out there who are in contact with hundreds of different people from all over the place on a daily basis, often not being fully able to social distance, a teacher is going to have contact with the same children from the same place on a daily is well able to social distance, indeed has more control than a health worker, a care worker a transport worker or a shop worker. NHS and care workers wear full PPE because they are repeatedly exposed to people infected with the virus, thats not going to be the case with a teacher!

On public transport, where your in close proximity to other people say on the tube, then masks may be appropriate, but it seems its more for confidence than for actual protection, I've explained above the usefulness of masks - one does have to differentiate between actions where its done as its seen to be a good thing and what in reality actually makes a difference!

Again you seem to have missed the bit where as long as you dont touch your mouth nose or eyes then the virus can't access your body and you can't be infected. Gloves are counter productive for ordinary use, a surgeon throws his PPE away or it goes into a bag untouched by him or her to be sterilised. You have to take your gloves off with your hands, wash them immediately, ensuring they don't touch any other surface in your house. Its simpler and less risky to just wash your hands as soon as you get inside or regularly when you are out. That is all thats required to keep you safe. A mask is some use, but according to most experts, it protects other from your spit etc., rather than protecting you, though it does mean you can't touch your mouth or nose accidentally.

You do not seem to be able to understand the concept of risk and you seem to have this idea that the virus is lurking all over the place wherever you touch. Yet its lifespan is limited even assuming that someone infected had touched a surface. Literally just washing ones hand regularly is the best protection.

I'm not being obstructive over teacher/pupil safety, I've explained repeatedly that the risks are low, we seem to be getting very uptight about this risk when we ignore others, though it seems you don't class them as serious risks! Which exactly makes my point, people seem to worry about risks that aren't that likely to happen to them, and worry about risks that are much more unlikely to happen and if they do not have a devastating effect on them.

Nor am I saying that appropriate measures shouldn't be put in place - lets see what Denmark is doing, that seems to be working well.

The Government has done a good job of scaring people ****less, again if people weren't being paid not to work, then they would be out and about pretty damn quickly!

I'm not having a go at teachers, thats just the example we are using, after all countless other workers are just returning to work and getting on with it albeit with appropriate measures in place to protect as far as possible.

Swale, in the interest of brevity and to avoid too much repetition I am recommending two things.

1) Schools should only return on a regional basis with dates for return agreed by those with regional knowledge regarding the existence of the virus locally and familiarity with the appropriateness of specific schools and classrooms.

2) Teachers, and pupils, should be equipped with masks and other basic items of PPE dependent on teaching situation.

I don’t think that is too much to ask.
There is no ‘one size fits all’ solution for schools, just as there isn’t with other ‘public’ places, and there is far too much rumour and contradiction as regards some of the things you are passing off as facts in your anxiety to see a much wanted return to normal.

[Ram59]

It's interesting to note that it's becoming to be acceptable planning for different areas to come out of the lockdown at different rates, depending on the local circumstances.

Yet, only 2 weeks ago, the government was hammered for relaxing the restrictions differently in England, compared to the rest of the UK. We even saw TV crews going to Oswestry golf club, where 14 holes were in Wales and 4 in England.

As RA says, different schools in different areas and of different structural make up, need their own approach to reopening. I think individual schools need to be given the right to decide their own fate. Some will easily be able to open on the 1st, some will take a little longer and some may need to restrict the numbers.