Reply With QuoteYes that was quite something.Originally Posted by cher1
Hall Of Fame
It has been illegal to go out anywhere without a mask or other face covering in Lombardy since 4th of April, and in most of Italy illegal to enter a shop without gloves and mask since the lockdown in early March. Because of the way the Italian government delegates all laws to the lowest possible level, these were regional decrees rather than national ones so maybe didn't register as international news.
As a nation of hypochondriacs, a lot of Italians were wearing them as early as February to be honest.
It would be interesting to hear from anyone based in other European countries.
A family member who has put up with me going on about masks for months sent me an article from the British Medical Journal yesterday which is strongly in favour of face coverings.
Hall Of Fame
Yes that was quite something.
Hall Of Fame
The French are using their own system too. And people are complaining about its security. And I think Germany are also doing their own thing. As my dad would have said, it's a right bugger's muddle. Has anywhere actually got anything up and running that had been proven to work? As you say, we should be looking to them if they have.
Hall Of Fame
Completely agree and a great example of this was in one of the first Coronavirus press conferences, I think it was the one where herd immunity was mentioned.
The line (with quite a condescending tone) from the PM and the public health officials was that other European countries were enforcing lockdowns for political reasons and they weren't actually useful. The UK was going to do it differently.
The UK, speaking as if it were tens of thousands of miles from all this, rather than tens of miles, was taking proactive action, staying in control of the situation rather than being reactive, had the best most up to date scientific advice (presumably other European countries were sacrificing goats on a sun temple to figure out what to do next) which apparently was go to Cheltenham races and don't forget to wash your hands.
Fast forward a few weeks and the UK is in lockdown with the army whacking up field hospitals in the centre of London. Maybe it's just my personal impression but I thought the complacency was remarkable.
Hall Of Fame
The regional approach in Italy is really interesting. Given their death toll and the way the health system was so overwhelmed, it does make you wonder about the efficacy of masks.
Hall Of Fame
The 'regional approach' I was referring to is a question of Italian constitutional law and who issues the decrees. Not sure what you can read into that.
They do have regional health organisations though, something vaguely similar to NHS trusts but covering a larger area. Again, not sure what you can read into that.
The Italian health system as a whole wasn't overwhelmed. In fact, if you take Lombardy (1 region of 20) out of the equation, Italy's infection/death toll statistics would've been more similar to the northern European countries than France and Spain.
It wouldn't be very scientific to cast doubt on the efficacy of masks based on one small and unique set of data.
Hall Of Fame
I'll second that
Hall Of Fame
While I agree that the ideal solution to coronavirus could be described as 'a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma', I think the efforts of our government to find an answer have been pathetic to say the least. There have been so many U-turns and outright lies that even the usual tub-thumping Tory boys on here have suddenly gone very quiet. I'm sure TheBlackHorse will claim once again that this is the view of the 100% hindsight mob. In reality it's not a problem if a few posters on a minuscule footy website adopt that approach, but it's a big problem when our so-called 'leaders' do the same. We have been very slow to take action in most critical areas, and more people will lose their lives earlier as a result.
Hall Of Fame
I wasn't reading anything at all into the regional approach, just that it's interesting as is so different to our system where pandemic decisions have been made centrally. Having worked in the NHS for years, including when we had regional health authorities, then strategic health authorities etc ad infinitum, the way things have changed to become fragmented into individual trusts with no regional strategic oversight any more, has provoked an interest in the way other countries run their health systems. CCGs don't really perform that function, and of course Public Health has moved across to local authorities rather than the NHS.
With regard to being overwhelmed, I was talking bed capacity, rather than total deaths, sorry if that wasn't clear. There was a Lancet article I'd read which said the system was close to collapse.
As for the masks, I wasnt thinking about writing a paper based on it, just pontificating, bearing in mind the diversity of views on the efficacy of them
Hall Of Fame
If we do go our own way and don't follow WHO the government would get slaughtered. Indeed they've been led by scientists from the beginning and are still getting slaughtered.
Lockdown was done when scientists told them to do it, social scientists were also consulted on how to implement it, treatments have been left entirely to the medics, mask wearing policy has been outsourced to the well resourced experts at WHO, our scientists until a fortnight ago were four square behind their advice, evidence is still patchy and not really strong enough to make it mandatory.
There's a lot of hindsight going on, still no answers, effective new treatments or a cure.
The biggest mistake of the whole thing so far has been the NHS chucking the known ill into hopelessly unprepared care homes. Hancock has to front up for the mess but is he really to blame? What about the health care managers who are well paid and supposed to be expert? Why are they getting a free ride over this and not feeling some of the heat.
Indeed in Scotland over half of all Covid deaths are in care homes but Sturgeon seems to get a free pass because she's a decent talker but Boris is a clown despite better outcomes and
testing rates in England.
Even now, when we know that vitamin D deficiency has an adverse effect on respiratory illness and when we know dark skinned people are often deficient and when we know they're more likely to die and when evidence from India and Indonesia show a clear correlation between vitamin D deficiency and outcomes, our scientists last week said there's no evidence vitamin D helps. It costs £7 for a years supply, you'd think they'd recommend taking it on the off chance that it lessens risk in ethnic communities and at worst would eliminate a vitamin deficiency in a community known to suffer from it, that maybe the Indians and Indonesians have a point, but no.
Maybe our public body scientists aren't that good.
Posting Permissions