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Thread: O/T:- Should he stay or should he go? WARNING - POLITICAL THREAD!!!!

  1. #451
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    9,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post
    The writer could have saved themselves a lot of time and effort and just put "whatever goes wrong, it's definitely not Boris Johnson's fault".

    It must be great being in charge and having no responsibility at all.
    Yep, and the ‘if the government did/didn’t do this, they’d just get moaned at’ is such a remarkably sh!t argument, it genuinely surprised me to read that it was written by a 30 year old.

    .

  2. #452
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    444
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatPie View Post
    Yep, and the ‘if the government did/didn’t do this, they’d just get moaned at’ is such a remarkably sh!t argument, it genuinely surprised me to read that it was written by a 30 year old.

    .
    I think you're being a bit unfair here, chaps. I've not been initiated into the snobhead club by Black Horse, so I guess I'm not really breaking ranks... While I also disagree with some of the conclusions here, at least there has been some genuine critical thought that has gone into it, and there is an actual narrative and opinion. If we don't welcome that, then all that is left is the sort of crap that Soccerman posts. Can't have it both ways.

    So, I'm going to respond to a few bits in there (and if the writer thinks he went on for a while, I am utterly incapable of using one word when 17000 will do!!)

    You're right. Boris couldn't win, no matter what he did. No one wins in this situation, though, that's the problem; what everyone is trying to do is lose as "well" as possible. Imagine the opposite of Notts' last season.

    Facing criticism is part of his job. You couldn't have someone "lead" NCM and have all posters be happy, let alone a country of 60 odd million. So yes, people would moan regardless, but his job is to make the hard decisions and face up to the consequences. Like a lot of people, I think he was far too late to bring in a lockdown, and I think more people died because of it. A democratic society means we hold the government to account for that.

    When they did bring in a lockdown, however, I think the British people rose to the challenge exceptionally well. And I think this can be credited in part to the government's messaging; they have clearly found that 3 word slogans (Get Brexit Done) are effective with the British populace, and they used that to good effect with Stay at Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives. The damage was already done, but when they finally did act they did it well, in my opinion.

    Unfortunately, that leads to the Cummings situation, and this is where the wheels have come off. When you ask this much of the populace, you have to be a paragon (ugh, bad memories) of virtue with respect to it, because the people have to trust you. This is why what he did is such an issue, even ahead of others whose actions were more egregious - he wrote the rules. Even if you want to buy the "no childcare in London, didn't stop on the way to Durham" excuse, the initial return to work, the Barnard Castle trip, and - worst of all to me - the hospital visit (SURELY someone else could have gone without risking infecting NHS staff in a city you didn't live in when you contracted Covid), are simply not defensible in this respect. He should have resigned, when he didn't he should have been fired.

    And with that, it's all gone to pot, and Johnson is getting pilloried on all sides for that. Whatever reason he has decided he cannot do without his top advisor, it shows he isn't capable of leading. The sycophancy from the cabinet and the other lickspittles parroting the "move on" line to people who have had loved ones die without saying goodbye has ruined their moral authority. Ending lockdown without the requirements in place for political expediency is again likely to cost lives, and these are now all laid at the door of one man - Boris Johnson.

    A couple of final things, going back through. Country comparisons are indeed difficult, but there are still things that can be inferred. Italy didn't take it seriously enough, but then this isn't the first killer virus from the east we have seen - SARS, H5N1 - but it was the first to really go global. We watched Italy fall apart... And did nothing. Sweden never locked down, and has a high death rate; the others that do seem to generally have populist leaders who tried to play tough guy; Johnson, Trump, Bolsonaro. Those who jumped on it have generally brought it under control; obviously there is no comparison in population density with New Zealand, for example, but bearing in mind they were in peak tourist season and kept to 22 deaths, there is no amount of scaling that has the UK looking good next to them. Similar to Scott Morrison in Australia, who was having a shocker of a start to the year, but even then made better decisions.

    And the press. They are getting a hammering at the moment, and I understand they annoy you. Many of them annoy me too, but without them we would be a lot worse off. There is a lot on social media about #mediascum at the moment; as the excellent James O'Brien has pointed out, go look up the word lügenpresse before you start going down that road, and then be very, very careful. There are clearly bad actors in the press, but not the media as a whole; don't let those who don't like to held to account blind you to the advantages of a sceptical and industrious free press.

    Hope you will invite your friend onto the board, Horsey. I'm sure there is plenty in what I've typed that they could argue with too.

  3. #453
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    335
    Now, there’s a well written well balanced post, Pingu.

  4. #454
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    11,084
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu_pie View Post
    I think you're being a bit unfair here, chaps. I've not been initiated into the snobhead club by Black Horse, so I guess I'm not really breaking ranks... While I also disagree with some of the conclusions here, at least there has been some genuine critical thought that has gone into it, and there is an actual narrative and opinion. If we don't welcome that, then all that is left is the sort of crap that Soccerman posts. Can't have it both ways.

    So, I'm going to respond to a few bits in there (and if the writer thinks he went on for a while, I am utterly incapable of using one word when 17000 will do!!)

    You're right. Boris couldn't win, no matter what he did. No one wins in this situation, though, that's the problem; what everyone is trying to do is lose as "well" as possible. Imagine the opposite of Notts' last season.

    Facing criticism is part of his job. You couldn't have someone "lead" NCM and have all posters be happy, let alone a country of 60 odd million. So yes, people would moan regardless, but his job is to make the hard decisions and face up to the consequences. Like a lot of people, I think he was far too late to bring in a lockdown, and I think more people died because of it. A democratic society means we hold the government to account for that.

    When they did bring in a lockdown, however, I think the British people rose to the challenge exceptionally well. And I think this can be credited in part to the government's messaging; they have clearly found that 3 word slogans (Get Brexit Done) are effective with the British populace, and they used that to good effect with Stay at Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives. The damage was already done, but when they finally did act they did it well, in my opinion.

    Unfortunately, that leads to the Cummings situation, and this is where the wheels have come off. When you ask this much of the populace, you have to be a paragon (ugh, bad memories) of virtue with respect to it, because the people have to trust you. This is why what he did is such an issue, even ahead of others whose actions were more egregious - he wrote the rules. Even if you want to buy the "no childcare in London, didn't stop on the way to Durham" excuse, the initial return to work, the Barnard Castle trip, and - worst of all to me - the hospital visit (SURELY someone else could have gone without risking infecting NHS staff in a city you didn't live in when you contracted Covid), are simply not defensible in this respect. He should have resigned, when he didn't he should have been fired.

    And with that, it's all gone to pot, and Johnson is getting pilloried on all sides for that. Whatever reason he has decided he cannot do without his top advisor, it shows he isn't capable of leading. The sycophancy from the cabinet and the other lickspittles parroting the "move on" line to people who have had loved ones die without saying goodbye has ruined their moral authority. Ending lockdown without the requirements in place for political expediency is again likely to cost lives, and these are now all laid at the door of one man - Boris Johnson.

    A couple of final things, going back through. Country comparisons are indeed difficult, but there are still things that can be inferred. Italy didn't take it seriously enough, but then this isn't the first killer virus from the east we have seen - SARS, H5N1 - but it was the first to really go global. We watched Italy fall apart... And did nothing. Sweden never locked down, and has a high death rate; the others that do seem to generally have populist leaders who tried to play tough guy; Johnson, Trump, Bolsonaro. Those who jumped on it have generally brought it under control; obviously there is no comparison in population density with New Zealand, for example, but bearing in mind they were in peak tourist season and kept to 22 deaths, there is no amount of scaling that has the UK looking good next to them. Similar to Scott Morrison in Australia, who was having a shocker of a start to the year, but even then made better decisions.

    And the press. They are getting a hammering at the moment, and I understand they annoy you. Many of them annoy me too, but without them we would be a lot worse off. There is a lot on social media about #mediascum at the moment; as the excellent James O'Brien has pointed out, go look up the word lügenpresse before you start going down that road, and then be very, very careful. There are clearly bad actors in the press, but not the media as a whole; don't let those who don't like to held to account blind you to the advantages of a sceptical and industrious free press.

    Hope you will invite your friend onto the board, Horsey. I'm sure there is plenty in what I've typed that they could argue with too.
    At last a voice of reason.

  5. #455
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    31,453
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatPie View Post
    Yep, and the ‘if the government did/didn’t do this, they’d just get moaned at’ is such a remarkably sh!t argument, it genuinely surprised me to read that it was written by a 30 year old.

    .

    Whether done by crayon or on an etch-a-sketch, I thought the bloke made some decent points, Bif.

  6. #456
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    11,084
    Quote Originally Posted by countygump View Post
    Whether done by crayon or on an etch-a-sketch, I thought the bloke made some decent points, Bif.
    It doesn't really matter, they hate the Tories with a passion so their replies are always predictable. It is the same with the likes of Soccerman who hates Labour. No matter what either party do good, bad or indifferent their replies will be negative.
    And I am called biased

  7. #457
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    34,481
    Quote Originally Posted by countygump View Post
    Whether done by crayon or on an etch-a-sketch, I thought the bloke made some decent points, Bif.
    I can't see where, I think he's talking bollox. He just endlessly repeats that if the Tories had done xxxxx some people would have criticised them, and if they hadn't done xxxx some people would have criticised them. I'm sure he's right, but he seems to think that because of this the government are completely absolved of any blame for the UK having such a dreadfully high death rate. Apparently that's the fault of the media!

  8. #458
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    31,453
    Dom's theme tune.

    Proppa moosic.



  9. #459
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    34,481
    Quote Originally Posted by countygump View Post
    Dom's theme tune.

    Proppa moosic.
    And the reply from Boris:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sQGwDeambg

  10. #460
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    31,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post

    Nah, this is the one.



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