Why can't they leave poor Boris alone?

[Andy_Faber]

As ever things have become unhelpfully polarised, MA.

Can any genuinely decent thinking person really object to the BLM cause or the ‘spark’ which ignited this particular series of protests?

Can anyone really object to the removal of those statues - allegedly to the ‘great and the good’ - who are, on closer inspection, actually monuments to those responsible for crimes against humanity?

Unfortunately what we now have is an unholy alliance of traditionalists and the far right seeking to prevent history actually being made in the name of, bizarrely, ‘it’s our history innit!’

At least there’s been one outbreak of common sense...I see the ‘Germans’ episode of Fawlty Towers has been reprieved.

Sadly this whole BLM issue is heaven sent for Johnson...if ever a distraction was needed from his handling of Coronavirus and Cummings this is it.

God Bless you RA you managed a reasonable length post yesterday without mentioning Johnson or Cummings

[Geoff Parkstone]

Can anyone really object to the removal of those statues - allegedly to the ‘great and the good’ - who are, on closer inspection, actually monuments to those responsible for crimes against humanity?

Editted as I'm just addressing this one point.

So I assume that you also pull down almost all of the remains of the 7 wonders of the western world which were almost certainly built using slave labour, let's detonate stonehenge, how about the Alhambra?

You cannot uninvent history for the convenience of the woke generation. You can learn from it and try to avoid committing the same mistakes

It's a strange balance. We should not glorify the unacceptable methods adopted by earlier generations, but in many cases the wealth was in part put to community good by philanthropic acts by the self same slavers. The statues honour the philanthropy not the slave trade, although obviously the two are forever linked.

We should also not lose sight of the part played by the Africans themselves in supplying tribal enemies etc to the slave trade. Its an aspect that many chose to overlook. Let he who comes to justice come with clean hands.

[Trickytreesreds]

Editted as I'm just addressing this one point.

So I assume that you also pull down almost all of the remains of the 7 wonders of the western world which were almost certainly built using slave labour, let's detonate stonehenge, how about the Alhambra?

You cannot uninvent history for the convenience of the woke generation. You can learn from it and try to avoid committing the same mistakes

It's a strange balance. We should not glorify the unacceptable methods adopted by earlier generations, but in many cases the wealth was in part put to community good by philanthropic acts by the self same slavers. The statues honour the philanthropy not the slave trade, although obviously the two are forever linked.

We should also not lose sight of the part played by the Africans themselves in supplying tribal enemies etc to the slave trade. Its an aspect that many chose to overlook. Let he who comes to justice come with clean hands.

A very good point GP. I have looked at a lot of those placards waved.
When you look at the white middle class waving them, it really does leave you exasperated as to their knowledge and motives.
Slavery has been around since the dawn of man kind. Its a wicked and cruel event, but still goes on today.

Placards that say, Britain invented slavery are laughable and even them saying Blacks were wronged by white slavers. There is a lot of dirty hands out there. Money is a massive motivator for lots to forget morals.
You never hear of people like this mentioned.
https://listverse.com/2017/06/06/top...k-slaveowners/

Yes we got it wrong. But so have countless other nations. We did our best to undo it as well.
Though it seems Wilberforce's actions don't get a mention either.

You cannot change history, but you can learn from it. To ignore it, invites repeat.
Never try to wipe it away, that solves nothing.

[Trickytreesreds]

Yep far right racists looking for trouble?

The police of course have different standards for people, lol

https://www.facebook.com/sapper.ken/...j0KRBW20VjJofw

[swaledale]

I'm not saying either way, I just think that it's very easy to write out a long list of damning lines about anyone, get all emotive and on your high horse (not pointed at anyone here). I'm saying we need more empathy and compassion in our society, if we worked together, we'd be a lot more successful.

Frankly if your not appalled by the incompetence shown by Johnson and his cabinet of mediocrity, then i don't know what would need to happen to convince you the guy irrespective of his politics is hopeless, more Churchill the dog than Churchill the leader!

Why do we need empathy with Johnson? A guy who is proven liar, (he has actually been sacked for writing lies in a newspaper article) as mayor he wasted millions on the "garden bridge" plus bought 1,000 Boris buses which were useless and expensive to run, a serial philanderer, someone who defends the indefensible, a guy who is fond of the bold slogan (even if factually they are wrong) but doesn't do detail, surrounds himself with people who are talent less and whose only qualification is that they will do whatever he says - strong and good leaders dont do that, they surround themselves with talented people who will challenge them, loyalty is one thing, blind submission is another.

Bsically people elected someone whose only ambition was to be Prime Minister by whatever means but as was obvious to anybody, not capable of doing the job.

Look at the shambles of this lying government, statistics blatantly manipulated - viz. counting gloves as 2 pieces of PPE, counting tests as those sent out not those actually done.

[ramAnag]

Take your point, GP...however the simple question is....should it remain acceptable for monuments (i.e. physical tributes) to individuals to remain when history shows us that many of their actions were entirely unacceptable.

It is sometimes difficult to judge past events by the standards of today however, in Colston’s case, many of his contemporaries were able to identify the wrong-doing and by the standards of today’s cosmopolitan society I can see how offensive having a statue of a slave trader in a vibrant and multi cultural city like Bristol must be.

Don’t really see your point when comparing Stonehenge and the Alhambra. There were some daft people on the news yesterday making much the same point and saying if statues go so should the Coliseum, but they are all essentially historical artefacts, not tributes to individuals whose actions are no longer deemed worthy of such tribute and glorification.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Don’t really see your point when comparing Stonehenge and the Alhambra. There were some daft people on the news yesterday making much the same point and saying if statues go so should the Coliseum, but they are all essentially historical artefacts, not tributes to individuals whose actions are no longer deemed worthy of such tribute and glorification.

Well you wouldn't as it doesn't fit your perspective. The pyramids built by slave labour to honour Cheops and other pharaohs who also entombed slaves alive to act as vassals in later life. The hanging gardens, built by slaves in glory of nebuchadnezzar I think. Various statues in the 7. Stonehenge built by slaves in the name of druidity and presumably a head druid. Alhambra for initially Muslim then latterly Christian rulers by indentured and slave Labour. The world is littered with glorification of individuals built by slaves. At its core slavery is not a black issue, its been going on for millennia.

One might almost say that BLM has culturally appropriated the practice, but that it no way justifies the practice, it merely contextualises its place in history. From which we still haven't learned - cue the need for the modern slavery act, actions by African dictatorships such as children's armies etc

[ramAnag]

Well you wouldn't as it doesn't fit your perspective. The pyramids built by slave labour to honour Cheops and other pharaohs who also entombed slaves alive to act as vassals in later life. The hanging gardens, built by slaves in glory of nebuchadnezzar I think. Various statues in the 7. Stonehenge built by slaves in the name of druidity and presumably a head druid. Alhambra for initially Muslim then latterly Christian rulers by indentured and slave Labour. The world is littered with glorification of individuals built by slaves. At its core slavery is not a black issue, its been going on for millennia.

One might almost say that BLM has culturally appropriated the practice, but that it no way justifies the practice, it merely contextualises its place in history. From which we still haven't learned - cue the need for the modern slavery act, actions by African dictatorships such as children's armies etc

Not really a question of my ‘perspective’ as much as my ignorance.

I went to a couple of gigs at Colston Hall in Bristol in the ‘70’s because an ex girlfriend lived there and one of my best mates was at Bristol Uni but I had no idea who Colston was.

Similarly I don’t know who Cheops was or who the Hanging Gardens were in honour of and I’m not about to suggest that everywhere built on the back of slave labour, or the exploitation of the working man for that matter, should be pulled down.

The question remains though...should we continue to honour those individuals who behaved so appallingly...and while I totally agree with your final sentence...my answer is, no...and the fact that there were and are other forms of slavery in no way diminishes the specific issue of black slavery which is clearly uppermost in the minds of the BLM campaigners.

[mistaram]

Not really a question of my ‘perspective’ as much as my ignorance.

I went to a couple of gigs at Colston Hall in Bristol in the ‘70’s because an ex girlfriend lived there and one of my best mates was at Bristol Uni but I had no idea who Colston was.

Similarly I don’t know who Cheops was or who the Hanging Gardens were in honour of and I’m not about to suggest that everywhere built on the back of slave labour, or the exploitation of the working man for that matter, should be pulled down.

The question remains though...should we continue to honour those individuals who behaved so appallingly...and while I totally agree with your final sentence...my answer is, no...and the fact that there were and are other forms of slavery in no way diminishes the specific issue of black slavery which is clearly uppermost in the minds of the BLM campaigners.

RA don't get worrying about those Hanging Gardens they were supposed to be in Babylon but nobody has ever found it seen them All the leading world archaeologists say they didn't exist they are just a legend. Bit like Robin Hood then Good job there's not a statue of Mike Ashley he's the equivalent of today's slavery

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=mistaram;39510681]Tricky please accept my apologies it must have been those nasty left chaps throwing bottles and smoke bombs at the police I suppose they only wore their St George T/shirts so news cameras would think they were the far right Once again in sorry I got it wrong