Taking The Knee

[ramAnag]

Of all the answers above I agree with MA the most.

The ‘disband the police’ thing I want nothing to do with, although having said that there are racist aspects to British policing which certainly need addressing.
On the subject of statues to those who have made a fortune out of slavery...of course we can’t rewrite history but surely such ‘monuments to achievement’ now belong in museums along with explanations of how we used to (immorally) live...alongside accounts of dog fighting, badger baiting, women not being allowed to vote and sending children up chimneys perhaps.

The bottom line for me is that in our modern multicultural society there remains a disproportionately low number of black representatives amongst business, education, medical and political leaders in the UK, Europe and the USA and a disproportionately high number to be found amongst the lowest paid and in custody.

That, btw, shouldn’t be seen as an argument in favour of ‘positive discrimination’, but it is, for me, why I support the original aims of the BLM cause and would have knelt.

[ramAnag]

Maddy, where sports personell are concerned, it is also a matter of perspective. Many of them scream they have been held back and not given the same opportunities as non coloureds, but here they are with all the trappings?

Take my earlier quote on Lewis Hamilton, regarding his stance with statues/ethnicity.
I took this from a guy who followed his career from the beginning.

I was there at the very start when Lewis began with karts. He was handed everything because he stood out and the fact he was black.
There was an expensive motorhome and top support from a big team called Zipcart, before he was ever part of McClarens junior project.
He was never poor and had more than most competitors.
There was drivers who beat him and out classed him, but never had the money behind them to get into F1.
Once Mc Claren put money into his equipment, he became unstoppable.
He is the ultimate reciprient of Black privalege given by many white British people, but now claims he was discriminated against throughout his career..
Nothing could be further from the truth and he is an entitled hypocrite.

As said before, I have seen Lewis get racial abuse. Totally wrong, but was he held back because of colour? I certainly don't think that is true.

‘Many of them scream...’. I suspect your language betrays your ‘them and us’ mentality, Tricky. Who are ‘them’ and why is it that you repeatedly accuse those who make a point you disagree with of ‘screaming’?

Why shouldn’t Hamilton offer his opinion on statues? He may have been badly advised given his employers’ example of using Jewish slaves but he can hardly be blamed for that.

Maybe he was ‘handed everything because he stood out’, I wouldn’t know. It certainly seems to have subsequently paid off if that was the case, but how do you know he was ‘handed everything...because he was black’?

You accept he’s been the subject of ‘racial abuse’ but still go on to describe him as ‘the ultimate recipient of black privilege’ and further describe him as an ‘entitled hypocrite’ whatever that means. Sounds like a load of nonsense to me.

[Trickytreesreds]

Of all the answers above I agree with MA the most.

The ‘disband the police’ thing I want nothing to do with, although having said that there are racist aspects to British policing which certainly need addressing.
On the subject of statues to those who have made a fortune out of slavery...of course we can’t rewrite history but surely such ‘monuments to achievement’ now belong in museums along with explanations of how we used to (immorally) live...alongside accounts of dog fighting, badger baiting, women not being allowed to vote and sending children up chimneys perhaps.

The bottom line for me is that in our modern multicultural society there remains a disproportionately low number of black representatives amongst business, education, medical and political leaders in the UK, Europe and the USA and a disproportionately high number to be found amongst the lowest paid and in custody.

That, btw, shouldn’t be seen as an argument in favour of ‘positive discrimination’, but it is, for me, why I support the original aims of the BLM cause and would have knelt.

Mainly decent answer and if your version was true, I'd consider doing it as a one off.
I don't agree with you about statutes, as ultimately where does it end?
You quote the ones with slavery behind it, but they have demanded Churchill and Nelson be ripped down?
What's done is done. Personally, a name plate and explanation would be more educational than censorship.

The problem with BLM, is they have other demands way outside your understanding of issues.
I see Redknapp and Evra removed their BLM badges last night, in response to BLM attacking Israel and defunding the police.
Underneath BLM is a political movement with different aims to equality and fairness.
The minute it went into bed with ANTIFA and Momentum this was bound to happen.
But in reality, the same thing has happened over the pond, where their demands border on the ridiculous.
Chanelle Helm a co founder in Loisianna, says this -
https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

I said before, the message is getting lost, the more political this movement becomes. That just makes folk turn around.

[Trickytreesreds]

‘Many of them scream...’. I suspect your language betrays your ‘them and us’ mentality, Tricky. Who are ‘them’ and why is it that you repeatedly accuse those who make a point you disagree with of ‘screaming’?

Why shouldn’t Hamilton offer his opinion on statues? He may have been badly advised given his employers’ example of using Jewish slaves but he can hardly be blamed for that.

Maybe he was ‘handed everything because he stood out’, I wouldn’t know. It certainly seems to have subsequently paid off if that was the case, but how do you know he was ‘handed everything...because he was black’?

You accept he’s been the subject of ‘racial abuse’ but still go on to describe him as ‘the ultimate recipient of black privilege’ and further describe him as an ‘entitled hypocrite’ whatever that means. Sounds like a load of nonsense to me.

I am talking about sports people, who scream about how hard their life has been due to race. know all.
Hamiltons opinion on statues are a classic case of look before you leap. Maybe he should chuck his job in at Mercedes in disgust eh, now that he knows the truth? But we all know that won't happen.
Maybe he should ask Mercedes to give half their profits up, as a sorry gesture? But we all know that won't happen.

THE LAST LINE WAS NOT MY WORDS, THEY WERE A DIRECT QUOTE so stop twisting it.
But to answer it, yes he did get a leg up, because of his ethnicity.

[ramAnag]

I am talking about sports people, who scream about how hard their life has been due to race. know all.
Hamiltons opinion on statues are a classic case of look before you leap. Maybe he should chuck his job in at Mercedes in disgust eh, now that he knows the truth? But we all know that won't happen.
Maybe he should ask Mercedes to give half their profits up, as a sorry gesture? But we all know that won't happen.

THE LAST LINE WAS NOT MY WORDS, THEY WERE A DIRECT QUOTE so stop twisting it.
But to answer it, yes he did get a leg up, because of his ethnicity.

Hmmm. How does challenging your post make me a ‘know all’?

‘I am talking about sports people who scream about how hard their life has been due to race’...so you’re talking about BAME (for want of a better expression) sports people ‘screaming’ about injustice?

Why should he ‘chuck his job at Mercedes’ because of something that happened 70-80 years ago anymore than people should stop working in Bristol or Liverpool, or buying a Mercedes for that matter?

Can’t help thinking you’re constructively missing the point, Tricky. If you scratch far enough you’ll find a great many current establishments owe their existence to unethical activities from the past. That is how it was and is now unavoidable...doesn’t mean we have to retain statues-monuments to those who behaved in a way we now find unacceptable does it?

Hypothetically, if a statue of Hitler had been erected in the Channel Islands during the period of occupation would you want it to remain in the name of education? No...me neither.

There may have been an irony about Hamilton taking the stance he did whilst working for Mercedes. Maybe he just didn’t know...I certainly didn’t...but your attack on him as an ‘entitled hypocrite’ and ‘ultimate recipient of black privilege’ seems both harsh and unfounded to me.

[MadAmster]

Didn't Hamilton's Dad fund his early go-karting? Wasn't Lewis very good at it, winning a lot which made it easy to get sponsors and offers of a racing seat in top teams for no other reason than he was, and still is, extremely good at racing? A bit like Max Verstappen whose Dad paid for his start. Max won a lot and got the "leg up" from sponsors and teams because he was very good at racing.

One of the above is coloured, the other not. Same sort of pathway to success. A father who could pay to get them on the ladder and then the skill and tenacity to make a fist of it.

[Trickytreesreds]

Hmmm. How does challenging your post make me a ‘know all’?

‘I am talking about sports people who scream about how hard their life has been due to race’...so you’re talking about BAME (for want of a better expression) sports people ‘screaming’ about injustice?

Why should he ‘chuck his job at Mercedes’ because of something that happened 70-80 years ago anymore than people should stop working in Bristol or Liverpool, or buying a Mercedes for that matter?

Can’t help thinking you’re constructively missing the point, Tricky. If you scratch far enough you’ll find a great many current establishments owe their existence to unethical activities from the past. That is how it was and is now unavoidable...doesn’t mean we have to retain statues-monuments to those who behaved in a way we now find unacceptable does it?

Hypothetically, if a statue of Hitler had been erected in the Channel Islands during the period of occupation would you want it to remain in the name of education? No...me neither.

There may have been an irony about Hamilton taking the stance he did whilst working for Mercedes. Maybe he just didn’t know...I certainly didn’t...but your attack on him as an ‘entitled hypocrite’ and ‘ultimate recipient of black privilege’ seems both harsh and unfounded to me.

ok, lets take your point.
Was Hitler a founder of Channel islands history? No of course not. He's left quite a few buildings of his legacy there though.
You are splitting hairs.
By your argument every monument in Rome should be torn down.
Do they,? No, because everyone knows it is part of Romes history as an Empire.
Rome ruled England/Wales. They have reminders everywhere of our enslavement. Should we remove them? Of course not.

Again you've done it over Hamilton. That was quote, not by me.
Hamilton has his own mind. Whether he was ignorant or badly coached as you call it. If he feels that strongly about icons having a dodgy past, he should resign and say so why he has.

This is just like those entitled celebrities telling everyone to put up a refugee in their spare room. Not one of them has taken a migrant into their mansions.
Pot and kettle comes to mind.

[ramAnag]

ok, lets take your point.
Was Hitler a founder of Channel islands history? No of course not. He's left quite a few buildings of his legacy there though.
You are splitting hairs.
By your argument every monument in Rome should be torn down.
Do they,? No, because everyone knows it is part of Romes history as an Empire.
Rome ruled England/Wales. They have reminders everywhere of our enslavement. Should we remove them? Of course not.

Again you've done it over Hamilton. That was quote, not by me.
Hamilton has his own mind. Whether he was ignorant or badly coached as you call it. If he feels that strongly about icons having a dodgy past, he should resign and say so why he has.

This is just like those entitled celebrities telling everyone to put up a refugee in their spare room. Not one of them has taken a migrant into their mansions.
Pot and kettle comes to mind.

Bizarre response.
I don’t know anything about ‘entitled celebrities’ and haven’t mentioned them anywhere.
Neither have I said anything at all about Hamilton being ‘coached’.

Why my argument suggests ‘every monument in Rome should be torn down’ is beyond me and I don’t think Colston and Rhodes were ‘founders of (UK) history’. They were individuals who have received years of adulation as benefactors when, as we now know, they were actually unethical and immoral individuals involved in the completely reprehensible business of slave trading.

Anyway...for the third time...why do you belittle Hamilton as ‘the ultimate recipient of black privilege’ and not just acknowledge a sportsman who has worked his way to the top via determination and talent? It may be a sport I find boring but I admire his achievement and find the fact that he is ‘mixed race’ entirely irrelevant.

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA, I accept that various victorian (and earlier) entrepreneurs used unethical means to achieve their aims and wealth, we are focussing on slavery here. If you look at the "unethics" of many past generations with today's different eyes, there are huge numbers of examples. Focussing on Bristol, there is the Wills family amassing wealth by tobacco - now not in favour, many families (krupp for instance) who made millions in the arms business, those brits and others who made a fortune in the opium wars / trade (sort of latter days Pablo Escobars)........the list in endless

If you plan to uninvent history, then lets do it properly, not just focus on one set of circumstances. Slave trade, narcotics trade, weapons of mass destruction - is any one of these more exploitative than another. All happened during a period of what nowadays we might call unenlightenment, where our human values and attitudes were quite different. Our history is littered with many examples of now unacceptable behaviour.

You and I would probably not be here today, or in our present state of relative comfort without all these peoole using unacceptable methods by today's standards, land grabbing and resource exploitation overseas etc etc. And that's just our recent history

Wave after wave of generations before these, here and elsewhere (mostly in europe) going back to pre christian days did exactly the same thing. We learned nothing from several thousand years of history. Do you really think a bit of symbolism in destroying public monuments is going to change improve anything? Do you really think sticking a note on the statues saying "these people were very naughty boys" is going to mke any difference.

This whole thing about statues, much like the calls for financial compensation being demanded by today's generations for the sins of the past, simply alienates people such as I who are otherwise sympathetic to the cause of equality. Ignoring for one moment the politicisation of BLM which will also lose it vast amounts of support, the BLM movement needs to focus on bringing people together to address the legitimate grievances of the current generation. You cannot change history, you cannot send Kunta Kinte back home (so to speak). Address something you can deal with, todays issues. Zero point in trying to change the past.

[MadAmster]

Which leads me back to the post I wrote in another thread where I spoke of the compromise taken in Hoorn in the case of the statue if Jan Peterszoon Coen.

To refresh...... A few years back there was a call to remove the statue. The council spoke with the protestors, went away and, in typical Dutch "Polderpolitiek" style came back with the proposal that the statue would remain but, as well as the plaque detailing his good deeds, another would be added regarding his less worthy exploits. That plaque also has a QR code so, should you so wish, you can access more info on his darker side.

We should not remove history or try to erase it. We need to know how we got to where we are today. Learn from mistakes and plain old wrong doing. Make sure we don't repeat those mistakes.

I can see two, and there will of course be more, reasonable courses of action.

1. Use Polderpolitiek compromise to apply balance OR

2. Put them all in a museum for educational purposes