Taking The Knee

[ramAnag]

rA, I accept that various victorian (and earlier) entrepreneurs used unethical means to achieve their aims and wealth, we are focussing on slavery here. If you look at the "unethics" of many past generations with today's different eyes, there are huge numbers of examples. Focussing on Bristol, there is the Wills family amassing wealth by tobacco - now not in favour, many families (krupp for instance) who made millions in the arms business, those brits and others who made a fortune in the opium wars / trade (sort of latter days Pablo Escobars)........the list in endless

If you plan to uninvent history, then lets do it properly, not just focus on one set of circumstances. Slave trade, narcotics trade, weapons of mass destruction - is any one of these more exploitative than another. All happened during a period of what nowadays we might call unenlightenment, where our human values and attitudes were quite different. Our history is littered with many examples of now unacceptable behaviour.

You and I would probably not be here today, or in our present state of relative comfort without all these peoole using unacceptable methods by today's standards, land grabbing and resource exploitation overseas etc etc. And that's just our recent history

Wave after wave of generations before these, here and elsewhere (mostly in europe) going back to pre christian days did exactly the same thing. We learned nothing from several thousand years of history. Do you really think a bit of symbolism in destroying public monuments is going to change improve anything? Do you really think sticking a note on the statues saying "these people were very naughty boys" is going to mke any difference.

This whole thing about statues, much like the calls for financial compensation being demanded by today's generations for the sins of the past, simply alienates people such as I who are otherwise sympathetic to the cause of equality. Ignoring for one moment the politicisation of BLM which will also lose it vast amounts of support, the BLM movement needs to focus on bringing people together to address the legitimate grievances of the current generation. You cannot change history, you cannot send Kunta Kinte back home (so to speak). Address something you can deal with, todays issues. Zero point in trying to change the past.

Good response GP, and I completely get where you’re coming from.
I don’t though wish to try and ‘uninvent’ or change history, but I do want us to learn from it.
With that in mind I think the best place for statues of those who we now rightly regard as wrongdoers is in a museum with explanations of their accomplishments and their ‘crimes’.

Sometimes I think you have to ‘walk in someone else’s shoes’. If you were black and lived in, for example, Bristol would you be happy to see a monument to and numerous buildings named after a known slave trader who was arguably responsible for the deaths of 20,000 African slaves?

To take a more up to date example - and I totally accept this is on a completely different level - let’s consider a more contemporary ‘villain’ by the name of Jimmy Savile.
Not sure why he ever had one but, not only was his statue removed, but his tomb in Scarborough was was also destroyed and his corpse - as I understand it - relocated elsewhere.

This was done by and with the full support of the authorities. Maybe it was because we - society - can identify more clearly with his more recent wrongdoings that such actions gained widespread approval, but is there really such a difference...especially if you’re black and have to walk past a monument to a man who may have been responsible for the deaths of your ancestors, every day?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Clearly I cannot answer those latter questions since I am not black and cannot therefore walk that mile. I cannot connect to the emotional impact. Then again one of Colston's greatest benefactions (is that a word) is the school bearing his name in Bristol. Sadly they always used to kick the crap out of us at school sports, when our firsts would play maybe their thirds or seconds . Now if I was black and had won a scholarship to that school, would I go round biting the hand that fed me?

There are two sides to these coins - wealth achieved by foul means and wealth applied for community good. When does one offset the other?

Where do principles give way to reality

[ramAnag]

Clearly I cannot answer those latter questions since I am not black and cannot therefore walk that mile. I cannot connect to the emotional impact. Then again one of Colston's greatest benefactions (is that a word) is the school bearing his name in Bristol. Sadly they always used to kick the crap out of us at school sports, when our firsts would play maybe their thirds or seconds . Now if I was black and had won a scholarship to that school, would I go round biting the hand that fed me?

There are two sides to these coins - wealth achieved by foul means and wealth applied for community good. When does one offset the other?

Where do principles give way to reality

Strange answer. I’m genuinely surprised at your inability to empathise.

Where do principles give way to reality? Well Savile apparently used his wealth to look after his mother...the Duchess, and the Krays, I believe, donated to charity. Doesn’t lessen their crimes though...imo.

Anyway, five minutes till kick off. COYR!

[GUNTERYY36]

I'm damned if I'm going to do ballerina impressions in memory of a violent evil thug.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"Strange answer. I’m genuinely surprised at your inability to empathise."

Really? I have been repeatedly told by black friends that it is impossible for me (or white folk generally) to get it because I/we are not black, as if its in their DNA and not mine.

[Trickytreesreds]

Bizarre response.
I don’t know anything about ‘entitled celebrities’ and haven’t mentioned them anywhere.
Neither have I said anything at all about Hamilton being ‘coached’.

Why my argument suggests ‘every monument in Rome should be torn down’ is beyond me and I don’t think Colston and Rhodes were ‘founders of (UK) history’. They were individuals who have received years of adulation as benefactors when, as we now know, they were actually unethical and immoral individuals involved in the completely reprehensible business of slave trading.

Anyway...for the third time...why do you belittle Hamilton as ‘the ultimate recipient of black privilege’ and not just acknowledge a sportsman who has worked his way to the top via determination and talent? It may be a sport I find boring but I admire his achievement and find the fact that he is ‘mixed race’ entirely irrelevant.

Sorry, but everything is a bizarre response, that isn't word for word to your belief.
You said said Hamilton -As you know I know nothing about motor sport and was complete unaware of Mercedes’ links with Jewish slavery, but it seems Lewis Hamilton - who I also know nowt about - was as badly advised as he probably was well intentioned.

Sounds like coaching to me.

Why is it? Rome was built on the backs and looted spoils from countries all over the world. It is full of statues/buildings acknowledging this period. Should they be torn down? Of course not. You seem to be swept along by this hysteria here and until BLM seperates itself from the political bull**** it is involved in-disband the police/abolish capitalism/abandon western values it will win no more friends.

For the third time- I DIDN'T SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you blind as well? It was a quote.
Hamilton is one the most talented drivers I have ever seen. A real credit to the sport and this country. But he is a hypocrite telling folks to do something, he himself is part of.
If he wants the past swept away, then he needs to look closer to himself.
Just for your knowledge as well.
BMW are just as guilty. They used 50 000 slaves under the nazi's
Guenther Quandt was a member of the Nazi party and benefited from its 'Aryanisation' programme by taking over Jewish firms
His wife, Magda Behrend Rietschel, later divorced him and married Joseph Goebbels, with whom she died in Hitler's bunker in 1945
Quandt factories employed 50,000 slave labourers to churn out weapons and ammunition for the Nazis during World War Two, making the family very rich
Family still retains majority of shares in luxury car maker.

So what is it then? Tear down German car production as well? The symbals are everywhere.

[Trickytreesreds]

Good response GP, and I completely get where you’re coming from.
I don’t though wish to try and ‘uninvent’ or change history, but I do want us to learn from it.
With that in mind I think the best place for statues of those who we now rightly regard as wrongdoers is in a museum with explanations of their accomplishments and their ‘crimes’.

Sometimes I think you have to ‘walk in someone else’s shoes’. If you were black and lived in, for example, Bristol would you be happy to see a monument to and numerous buildings named after a known slave trader who was arguably responsible for the deaths of 20,000 African slaves?

To take a more up to date example - and I totally accept this is on a completely different level - let’s consider a more contemporary ‘villain’ by the name of Jimmy Savile.
Not sure why he ever had one but, not only was his statue removed, but his tomb in Scarborough was was also destroyed and his corpse - as I understand it - relocated elsewhere.

This was done by and with the full support of the authorities. Maybe it was because we - society - can identify more clearly with his more recent wrongdoings that such actions gained widespread approval, but is there really such a difference...especially if you’re black and have to walk past a monument to a man who may have been responsible for the deaths of your ancestors, every day?

Glad you brought up Savilles corpse. (another one of the BBC's little icons)
Are you aware that the Bristol council are not only reviewing what to do with Colstons statue, but also his grave?
Where does this end?

[ramAnag]

Sorry, but everything is a bizarre response, that isn't word for word to your belief.
You said said Hamilton -As you know I know nothing about motor sport and was complete unaware of Mercedes’ links with Jewish slavery, but it seems Lewis Hamilton - who I also know nowt about - was as badly advised as he probably was well intentioned.

Sounds like coaching to me.

Why is it? Rome was built on the backs and looted spoils from countries all over the world. It is full of statues/buildings acknowledging this period. Should they be torn down? Of course not. You seem to be swept along by this hysteria here and until BLM seperates itself from the political bull**** it is involved in-disband the police/abolish capitalism/abandon western values it will win no more friends.

For the third time- I DIDN'T SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you blind as well? It was a quote.
Hamilton is one the most talented drivers I have ever seen. A real credit to the sport and this country. But he is a hypocrite telling folks to do something, he himself is part of.
If he wants the past swept away, then he needs to look closer to himself.
Just for your knowledge as well.
BMW are just as guilty. They used 50 000 slaves under the nazi's
Guenther Quandt was a member of the Nazi party and benefited from its 'Aryanisation' programme by taking over Jewish firms
His wife, Magda Behrend Rietschel, later divorced him and married Joseph Goebbels, with whom she died in Hitler's bunker in 1945
Quandt factories employed 50,000 slave labourers to churn out weapons and ammunition for the Nazis during World War Two, making the family very rich
Family still retains majority of shares in luxury car maker.

So what is it then? Tear down German car production as well? The symbals are everywhere.

From what I can understand of that opening paragraph you seem to be confusing ‘coaching’ with ‘advice’. If ‘advised’ sounds like ‘coaching’ to you that’s your problem.

You also seem to be suggesting that I’m advocating ‘tearing things down’. I’m not and you won’t find any evidence of me doing so. I’ve made the point that statues and monuments erected to the memory of deeply flawed individuals belong in museums along with other anachronistic objects such as the ‘Black’s Head’ from the ‘Green Man and Black’s Head’ sign in Ashbourne.

You’ve totally backtracked on Hamilton who you started the day by attacking on three counts but who you now describe as a ‘real credit to the sport and this country’. Make your mind up...I don’t know enough to know when Hamilton began driving for Mercedes but it sure as hell wasn’t when the Nazis were impacting upon the German car industry, so it’s hardly a case of something ‘he himself is part of’ is it?

[Trickytreesreds]

From what I can understand of that opening paragraph you seem to be confusing ‘coaching’ with ‘advice’. If ‘advised’ sounds like ‘coaching’ to you that’s your problem.

You also seem to be suggesting that I’m advocating ‘tearing things down’. I’m not and you won’t find any evidence of me doing so. I’ve made the point that statues and monuments erected to the memory of deeply flawed individuals belong in museums along with other anachronistic objects such as the ‘Black’s Head’ from the ‘Green Man and Black’s Head’ sign in Ashbourne.

You’ve totally backtracked on Hamilton who you started the day by attacking on three counts but who you now describe as a ‘real credit to the sport and this country’. Make your mind up...I don’t know enough to know when Hamilton began driving for Mercedes but it sure as hell wasn’t when the Nazis were impacting upon the German car industry, so it’s hardly a case of something ‘he himself is part of’ is it?

So what you're saying is then, what was done in the past isn't really any blame/fault/connection with anyone today?
If BMW/Mercedes have history connected with slavery/brutality/murder, then we not let their past be something that carries on into todays world.

Gotcha now, glad we cleared that up.

[MadAmster]

Balance. Add plaques to statues telling the darker side of yesterday's "heroes".

Leave the statues where they are or put them in musea. We should not be erasing history we should be telling it, warts and all.