Next Season

[AucklandRover]

...just reached a point I feel its pointless justifying myself thoughts. I do spend time writing out examples. And backing up what I say, using very specific examples. And that is what you are asking me to do. Justify myself. You will never take on board what I am saying. You will disagree before you have even read it. So I just feel its best not to ask mke to do that. Save time and effort.
You will disagree no matter what, and that will never every change.
We are just having the same conversation time and time again.

That is simply not true.
I always discuss specifics.
One example was our prolonged debate on what Downing brought to the team.

Incidentally, YOU have made no attempt to answer my points about our success-rate when it comes to changing managers, or managerial changes in general.

[seventwo]

You consistently defend any of your arguments with the "luck" card.
Your words, consistently for months in end.

[robinrover]

A few things will go against mr mowbray.
Square pegs in round holes
His loyalty to those who are not good enough.
If smallwood didnt get injured would travis be with us or would smallwood still be playing?
This is not me turning on big tony yet but the evidence is for all to see.

[AucklandRover]

You consistently defend any of your arguments with the "luck" card.
Your words, consistently for months in end.

No - I don't.
What I consistently say is that blaming every negative on a single factor is simply and obviously wrong.
People like to simplify, and in football, that usually means taking the easy route of blaming the manager.
I have taking the trouble, numerous times, to write out the list of all the factors that I believe contribute.
You simply ignore that and characterize me as saying, "It's all down to luck."
Saying that would be just as clueless as saying, "It's all down to the manager"!

[champs95]

No - I don't.
What I consistently say is that blaming every negative on a single factor is simply and obviously wrong.
People like to simplify, and in football, that usually means taking the easy route of blaming the manager.
I have taking the trouble, numerous times, to write out the list of all the factors that I believe contribute.
You simply ignore that and characterize me as saying, "It's all down to luck."
Saying that would be just as clueless as saying, "It's all down to the manager"!

You often accuse me of not looking at other clubs. Are you saying then, that Leeds win the league by being lucky this season? Is that what it all boils down to over a 46 game seston? Luck?
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one of those players have ever win promotion out of the Champ. And every season they finish around midtable. That same exact group of players. A midtable at best bunch of players. When Bielsa came in, they where exactly like us. Almost man for man. A club, a group of players accepting they where midtable. Forever. Showing no signs of going up. Just like we are now.
Why would Downing & Bennett wanting fo up? They would then have to leave, onto pastures new. They have zero interest in pushing onto another level. It's all very safe with us. They get well paid, have fantastic facilities. And they arent being pushed. They come in, train, go home. If we lose, who cares. They will be back in the side the following week no matter what.
But Bielsa came in, transformed the same set of midtable players, and started to improve them. You cant disagree with that. The proof is there. They got in the play offs last season, and missed out. This season, they have continued to improve.
We arent improving. We are at best staying the same. Accepting midtable medicracy.

Its not the players at this level. It's pretty much the same group standard wise, from the top to the bottom. It's an extremely weak league. Exciting, close, but weak.
It's the manager at this level. He makes all the difference. The ones who are decent, get the most out of players and will improve a side. We get in players like Downing. Who is neat, tidy and had a good solid career. But he isnt going to improve us. Neither is Bennett, or Graham, or Samuel or Mulgrew. But he wont trust a young player, unless a game has nothing riding in it. Opting for safety everytime. That safe approach is a group of players with absolutely no interest in wanting to push on. And that's because the voice on charge clearly doesnt. Or isn't capable. He is safe. Thats as good as it gets. Some fans with no real vested interest in Rovers will be happy to accept midtable mediocrity forever more. Some fans think it could be time for a change.
There is a reason for that Auks. I'm not done clueless kid who only started watching football a year ago. I've watched it closely all my life. Over 35 years of going to live football matches. Investing all my time and effort into watching Rovers. I want more. I dont want settled for going nowhere. I want us to try. Not accept mediocry. I wouldn't want it for me on my life. I wouldn't want it for any of my family or friends. So my passion for football echoes my passion in life. I've been knocked down a million times. I get back up, and try even harder. Everyday.
Why should I not expect this. I don't expect promotion. I do expect working tirelessly to get the best out of oneself. Footballers are exempt from this at times. As are managers.
This club is a bit of an old boys network. Where its all very nicey nice. And nobody is pushing anyone to strive for more. A bunch of footballers on their last pay day before retirement certainly arent going to put that extra effort in.
Leeds manager squeezed every last bit out of that set of midtable Champ players. While I dont like Leeds, this season I admire them. No better them us, apart from one man. Who improved every single player.

Our manager hasnt improved one player. I'd anything he has stunted the growth of certain players he paid alot of money for. And played Samuel. He can do that elsewhere for me.

[AucklandRover]

Champs - you're not listening. I haven't said, "It's all down to luck" - ever!
And Leeds are actually a perfect case to illustrate MY point.
A big club from a very large city - and they've been out of the PL for 16 years!
You make it sound so simple.
Give youth a chance to improve the team? No more guarantee of that than anything else.
In any case, Nyambe, Lenihan, Carter, Buckley, Rankin-Costello and Travis have all featured, and all are Academy-products.
Magloire, Grayson and Butterworth were all on the fringe, until seriously injured.
Several more have been out on loan.
And, of course, Brereton, Tosin and Chapman also still qualified for the U-23s.

I actually think Downing has had a decent season, and I'm not sure how we could have afforded an experienced midfielder significantly better than him.
I simply cannot find the cause for despair that seems to strike you so strongly.
And I certainly don't agree that our players have coasted. It's been too up-and-down for that.

[robinrover]

I think we should stick by him.
It seems to be up for debate regularly on social media but I feel we would be best served to stick with the man who has been here now 3 seasons.
Out of available managers,who could take us that step further?
Pearson?hughton?they are the only ones who possibly could but again it's no guarantee.
Just wish mowbray would play the players in correct positions,that for me is the side to him that I dislike the most.
Keep the faith and hopefully we can shop the bargain basement section with success.
Next season is a push for the play offs unfortunately the current team is not good enough.

[champs95]

Champs - you're not listening. I haven't said, "It's all down to luck" - ever!
And Leeds are actually a perfect case to illustrate MY point.
A big club from a very large city - and they've been out of the PL for 16 years!
You make it sound so simple.
Give youth a chance to improve the team? No more guarantee of that than anything else.
In any case, Nyambe, Lenihan, Carter, Buckley, Rankin-Costello and Travis have all featured, and all are Academy-products.
Magloire, Grayson and Butterworth were all on the fringe, until seriously injured.
Several more have been out on loan.
And, of course, Brereton, Tosin and Chapman also still qualified for the U-23s.

I actually think Downing has had a decent season, and I'm not sure how we could have afforded an experienced midfielder significantly better than him.
I simply cannot find the cause for despair that seems to strike you so strongly.
And I certainly don't agree that our players have coasted. It's been too up-and-down for that.

''In any case, Nyambe, Lenihan, Carter, Buckley, Rankin-Costello and Travis have all featured, and all are Academy-products''

Lenihan is 26 Aucks, and made his debut in 2015, 5 years ago. And has 5 years worth of experience. When you suggest he is being blooded from the academy, what do you mean? He has been playing for 5 seasons now. And is 26.

Nyambe is 22 and made his debut in 2016, and has been playing first team football for 4 seasons. He isn't being blooded now, he is well established. For 4 seasons.

Travis is 22, and has 71 league appearances under his belt. Making his debut in the 2018/19 season, and is not being blooded now. He is well established. 1 and a half seasons.

Buckley 20 has made 16 appearances in 2019/20. Only 3 starts. 13 as sub.

JRC 20 has made just 6 appearances, 5 starts.

Carter has made one start. A game in which nothing was riding and Mowbray stated had the game been one we needed to win to get in the play offs, he would not have played.

Stuart Downing is 35 has made 34 appearances, more than any academy graduate.

He has more appearances put together than Buckley, Carter, and JRC all introduced to the fist team this season in 19/20. All 3 you named as being 'introudcued' this season as academy have played just 9 league starts between them all.

While Downing has 35.

Bradley Johnson (33) has made 33 appearances.

Ben Brereton has just 14 appearances. 1 goal.
Danny Graham has 37 appearances and only 4 goals, all season long.

Just in case you are wondering why we will finish roughly the same as last season, and are no different to last season. And also, attempt to see what I am suggesting.
You are telling me 9 appearances from 3 players is enough? We are putting in almost all our money into this academy. Why if we just get Downing who plays treble amount of games as 3 new academy players. Johnson has also played alot too with 33 appearances. How many of those 33 would you say he played well Aucks?

But you will argue that he doesn't favour experienced players, over our own academy players. Despite me taking the time to show you otherwise. Even though the stats tell you the exact opposite.


Now, I spent some time writing all of that out about Leeds and Beilsa, of which you have completely ignored. Simply saying 'Leeds have been out of the Prem for 16 years, and are a big club'.
What if I may ask, has that got to do with Bielsa taking a Champ midtable side, and getting them promoted? Where Leeds not a big club for those other 16 seasons? Why did they not work out? And this season it did?
Luck?
Good management?
The size of the city?
The fact it had been 16 years?
Could you possibly acknowledge what I took the time and effort to query.

[champs95]

So actually, the stark reality is, we have introduced just one new academy player to the first team this season.
Carter, who made one appearance. In a meaningless last home game with nothing riding on it. That was it.

Downing & Johnson have played 68 games between them, and our new academy player just one.
And less than 10 appearances between 3 new(ish) players.
Venkys put in £4m a season for that academy.
In reality, he went and got 2 experienced players in instead, who I firmly believe have not improved us.

[champs95]

My bad, I forgot to mention one academy player I failed to mention. Who has also been introduced.
Jack Vale, who like Carter, was brought in for the meaningless game and got his first appearance of the season by sub.

Last season Davenport was played vrs Swansea in a similar game starting his first game for Rovers. He hasn't started another since. while Downing and Johnson have played 68 games between them.

You could argue that experience isn't actually having any kind of effect, and could push the case that playing younger players is worth a shot? What have we got to lose? We have stayed still over the past 2 seasons, and have pretty much the same amount of points.

Is it a disaster? Nope, I am not saying that.

Are you actually improving, or showing any signs of improving, or learning? I would say no, as we have the same points as last season give you take a few points either way.

We still have the same issues, we are still inconsistent, despite having all this experience.
If we do exactly the same next season, with the same type of players, will we not just end up exactly the same again?

Fair enough, its not like we are struggling, and as you correctly point out, we are a mid-table club. So a 10th-14th finish next season is probably on the cards. And the one after ....and so on.

That's if we manage to stay hold of our best players every single season. If we don't, then my suggestion is we could move down the table and end up nearer the relegation spots.

Are we actually any closer to the play offs now than last season? I would say no. And finally Aucks, you rightly so point out there is nothing between top or bottom in our league. So we could easily be facing a relegation battle next season, just as much as finish near the play offs. The trouble if you sit still in football, and are mid-table, you could easily go one way or the other.

With us having no money, and facing the possibility of losing some of our better players, and not being able to replace them, and the fact we tend to opt for experience over youth means the fact we will have to probably go with youth is worrying. As I have shown you today, the stats are not great with him using or trusting young players.

Where will all of this leave us?