New Season, New Beginning

[arab777]

Disappointing as Saturday was (and basically as the season is now effectively over) I thought I’d dig this up from back in August and highlight where we felt we were and what we felt we could/should achieve for the upcoming season. I’d say overall it’s job done - still a lot of work to do of course but Micky has certainly earned another crack at next year. However, next season though now is a totally different animal. I think it’s fair to say that we’ll be looking for a couple of key additions to the squad and a proper push for top six as the next stage of our recovery.

Agree and certainly wouldn't call this season stressful, maybe frustrating at times. We have consolidated our position as a Premiership club. And in some ways our deficiencies this season are grounds for optimism as it should be obvious where we need to improve. It is something that can be fixed. Get in creative midfielders and width.

[stokearab]

I actually think it will be tougher to make top 6 next season.

The ugly sisters will occupy top 2 ,Hibs will deffo be in top
4,Hearts just being promoted will spend, the Sheepies being guff will spend and that just leaves the potential cup double winners as the last top 6 favourites IMO.

2 or 3 new players won't cut it. We need more in if we want to challenge the teams I've mentioned above and if I'm being honest I'd be happy to not be involved in a relegation battle and have good cup run again.

Top 6 would be great,but it can wait.

Agree that it's going to need major changes if we're to challenge for top 6. And I don't see those changes coming. I'd like to be wrong.
I'm just not optimistic at all, we have players who mostly don't function as an effective team.

The financials are terrible. We'll sell if we get the right offers, which I don't have a problem with, but we need quality to add to the existing squad never mind replace Benji and or Shankland.

We need to be signing players who can be made into an effective passing unit. Just as St Johnstone have been doing for a long time. Livi too. And we need a manager who can coach these players into a fluid team that know how to create and damage the opposition. Is that MM, I don't know.

If Connolly Harkes Butcher Pawlett Clark etc is signposting the future it's very concerning. Very worrying. Youth should give us an injection yet didn't get a chance v Hibs.

Maybe I'm still hurting from failing to perform in that game but I'm feeling unusually pessimistic.

[Chick A Saw]

I actually think it will be tougher to make top 6 next season.

The ugly sisters will occupy top 2 ,Hibs will deffo be in top
4,Hearts just being promoted will spend, the Sheepies being guff will spend and that just leaves the potential cup double winners as the last top 6 favourites IMO.

2 or 3 new players won't cut it. We need more in if we want to challenge the teams I've mentioned above and if I'm being honest I'd be happy to not be involved in a relegation battle and have good cup run again.

Top 6 would be great,but it can wait.

Without going back and looking at the results/table, but 6(and 5th?) spot this season was kinda tight and i would hazard a guess that bettering the results v St Johnstone might have got us there? I can see it being exactly the same next season, but its gonna be a hell of a lot tighter with potential ups and downs this season.

For me its the 4 tops from Glasgow and Edinburgh, after that its whoever gets out the playoffs to struggle and a dog fight for 5th/6th over 7 teams!

[JamesMcClean]

Agree that it's going to need major changes if we're to challenge for top 6. And I don't see those changes coming. I'd like to be wrong.
I'm just not optimistic at all, we have players who mostly don't function as an effective team.

The financials are terrible. We'll sell if we get the right offers, which I don't have a problem with, but we need quality to add to the existing squad never mind replace Benji and or Shankland.

We need to be signing players who can be made into an effective passing unit. Just as St Johnstone have been doing for a long time. Livi too. And we need a manager who can coach these players into a fluid team that know how to create and damage the opposition. Is that MM, I don't know.

If Connolly Harkes Butcher Pawlett Clark etc is signposting the future it's very concerning. Very worrying. Youth should give us an injection yet didn't get a chance v Hibs.

Maybe I'm still hurting from failing to perform in that game but I'm feeling unusually pessimistic.

I’m not sure we need major changes Stoke. Additions yes, but not major changes. One of the big issues for the Club from the night the Tim Two packed their bags is the sheer constant upheaval that’s gone on. In the dugout we’ve had MacNamara, Bowman, Mixu, Mixu’s assistant, Ray, Ray’s assistant, Csaba, Csaba’s assistant, Neilson and finally MM. On the playing front the level of turnover has been mental, properly scary.

Contrast with St Johnstone. They’ve still got the likes of May, O’Halloran, Murray Davidson, Wotherspoon , Liam Craig etc from winning the cup in 2014 and their manager was the assistant manager back then and is well ensconced in the Club. Our own successful periods have all coincided with periods of consistency from Jim’s days through to Sir Craig and Pedro (and running into the first period of Jackie). It took Craig Levein and then Peter Houston four years to take the Club on from relegation candidates to winning the cup and qualifying for Europe and then moving forward had established solid foundations which Jackie initially built on. For example, by the time we’d won the cup we’d had the likes of Jon Daly, Sean Dillon, Prince, Gomis, Conway, Dixon, Kenneth etc playing for a good 3-4 seasons. They’d developed by playing alongside each other and knowing how to work together in a system.

We have a core squad to build around. We have massively improved at the back from the start of the season with Reynolds and Edwards. That’s a good foundation to start with. We have decent holding midfielders in Fuchs and Butcher (although I’m not convinced we always have to play the two of them at once). What we need now is to start to move from being a stodgy, solid side and for that I think we need width (which could be here already with Logan Chalmers), a better attacking midfielder (sorry but Harkes is not the answer) and a target man and by that I mean a big target man to allow us to vary it up in attack a bit (I feel we’re a bit predictable up front currently).

At the end of the day though wholesale changes are not the answer. We’ve proved that ourselves in the past and St Johnstone are proving that right now. The important thing is direction - is it heading in the right way? Well let’s put it this way, it’s probably pointing a lot better than at any time in the last six years.

[BudMill90]

I’m not sure we need major changes Stoke. Additions yes, but not major changes. One of the big issues for the Club from the night the Tim Two packed their bags is the sheer constant upheaval that’s gone on. In the dugout we’ve had MacNamara, Bowman, Mixu, Mixu’s assistant, Ray, Ray’s assistant, Csaba, Csaba’s assistant, Neilson and finally MM. On the playing front the level of turnover has been mental, properly scary.

Contrast with St Johnstone. They’ve still got the likes of May, O’Halloran, Murray Davidson, Wotherspoon , Liam Craig etc from winning the cup in 2014 and their manager was the assistant manager back then and is well ensconced in the Club. Our own successful periods have all coincided with periods of consistency from Jim’s days through to Sir Craig and Pedro (and running into the first period of Jackie). It took Craig Levein and then Peter Houston four years to take the Club on from relegation candidates to winning the cup and qualifying for Europe and then moving forward had established solid foundations which Jackie initially built on. For example, by the time we’d won the cup we’d had the likes of Jon Daly, Sean Dillon, Prince, Gomis, Conway, Dixon, Kenneth etc playing for a good 3-4 seasons. They’d developed by playing alongside each other and knowing how to work together in a system.

We have a core squad to build around. We have massively improved at the back from the start of the season with Reynolds and Edwards. That’s a good foundation to start with. We have decent holding midfielders in Fuchs and Butcher (although I’m not convinced we always have to play the two of them at once). What we need now is to start to move from being a stodgy, solid side and for that I think we need width (which could be here already with Logan Chalmers), a better attacking midfielder (sorry but Harkes is not the answer) and a target man and by that I mean a big target man to allow us to vary it up in attack a bit (I feel we’re a bit predictable up front currently).

At the end of the day though wholesale changes are not the answer. We’ve proved that ourselves in the past and St Johnstone are proving that right now. The important thing is direction - is it heading in the right way? Well let’s put it this way, it’s probably pointing a lot better than at any time in the last six years.

Great post

[stokearab]

I’m not sure we need major changes Stoke. Additions yes, but not major changes. One of the big issues for the Club from the night the Tim Two packed their bags is the sheer constant upheaval that’s gone on. In the dugout we’ve had MacNamara, Bowman, Mixu, Mixu’s assistant, Ray, Ray’s assistant, Csaba, Csaba’s assistant, Neilson and finally MM. On the playing front the level of turnover has been mental, properly scary.

Contrast with St Johnstone. They’ve still got the likes of May, O’Halloran, Murray Davidson, Wotherspoon , Liam Craig etc from winning the cup in 2014 and their manager was the assistant manager back then and is well ensconced in the Club. Our own successful periods have all coincided with periods of consistency from Jim’s days through to Sir Craig and Pedro (and running into the first period of Jackie). It took Craig Levein and then Peter Houston four years to take the Club on from relegation candidates to winning the cup and qualifying for Europe and then moving forward had established solid foundations which Jackie initially built on. For example, by the time we’d won the cup we’d had the likes of Jon Daly, Sean Dillon, Prince, Gomis, Conway, Dixon, Kenneth etc playing for a good 3-4 seasons. They’d developed by playing alongside each other and knowing how to work together in a system.

We have a core squad to build around. We have massively improved at the back from the start of the season with Reynolds and Edwards. That’s a good foundation to start with. We have decent holding midfielders in Fuchs and Butcher (although I’m not convinced we always have to play the two of them at once). What we need now is to start to move from being a stodgy, solid side and for that I think we need width (which could be here already with Logan Chalmers), a better attacking midfielder (sorry but Harkes is not the answer) and a target man and by that I mean a big target man to allow us to vary it up in attack a bit (I feel we’re a bit predictable up front currently).

At the end of the day though wholesale changes are not the answer. We’ve proved that ourselves in the past and St Johnstone are proving that right now. The important thing is direction - is it heading in the right way? Well let’s put it this way, it’s probably pointing a lot better than at any time in the last six years.

Maybe the phrase 'major changes' should have been 'several changes' and I was referring mostly to the playing staff and the coach, wasn't questioning the club as a whole.

Reason I said that was I was agreeing with Whitfield that making the top 6 next season will be harder not easier.
Anyone who thinks a couple of tweeks is all we need is mistaken IMO

Our goalkeeper kept us out of a relegation battle last season, unlikely we're going to have that advantage next season. If we continue to play the standard of football we're producing I think we'll struggle again.
And by the way we are too soft.

Our recruitment is also in question. Mind boggling contract extensions send out a worrying message.
Who exactly is this core to build on you refer to, I'm a bit sceptical on that.
I'm also sceptical about our ability to pass the ball, have a joined up way of playing. Its horrible to watch us constantly giving the ball away and to be brutally honest my patience has run out with it.

I'm still very angry about Saturday. That front 3 has failed to click every time this season bar once. Saturday was tailor made for Chalmers to run at their back 4 and pull them out of position. 442 would have given us an extra midfielder.

Maybe I'll feel different when I start to see who comes in.

[stokearab]

Edit to add imo Butcher is a major part of our midfield problem. Always on a yellow and can't pass consistently.
Other opinions available.

[Whitfieldarab]

Edit to add imo Butcher is a major part of our midfield problem. Always on a yellow and can't pass consistently.
Other opinions available.

Agreed. Butcher is a fkn nightmare for flying into tackles,an absolute raj and he holds Fuchs back from doing his job as our best holding midfielder because Fuchs can actually find a tangerine jersey with a pass.

Butcher and Powers didn't work and neither does Butcher and Fuchs.

[BackRowArab]

Back from my 3 day self isolation.

If you look at our best team, in a system that suits them, we have:

Seigrest
Smith, Edwards, Reynolds, Robson
Butcher, Fuchs
Appere, Clark, Chalmers
Shankland

So what needs strengthened? Fuchs and Butcher are too similar (well apart from Fuchs being talented and Butcher being not so), so we need a central midfielder in there. Harkes isn't good enough, and Powers is probably away. So that is signing number one.

The attacking midfield/AMC/Number 10/Whatever you want to call it. At the moment Clark is at his best there but never gets to play. Pawlett isn't an upgrade either. Mochrie might be a good fit, alongwith Meekison as an option, but they need a first choice guy in there. So signing number two.

The two wingers, I went with Chalmers and Appere. Sporle is a good back up option on the left, with Appere his back ups would be Fortheringham. So probably one first choice winger would be signing number three.

Up front, if Shankland stays (and that's a big if) then he is number one choice. If McNulty comes in, then he has to be the other guy who plays when Shankland doesn't. And if Shankland is away, then obviously a first choice striker (Devante Cole on a free) needs to come in as signing number four.

Centre half. Connolly is the experienced back up, but Neilson & Smith need to be given games ahead of him. I wouldn't make any signings here, the future is bright.

Full backs. Freeman can cover at right back, as can Neilson. Robson has Sporle for cover, but I wouldn't mind some proper competition coming in as signing number five.

In goal it depends on Seigrest. If he stays, nothing has to change. If he goes, then a new keeper in and Newman goes out on loan for signing number six.

So four signings required and two more if Shankland and Benji leave. A bit more faith in youth (Cooney and Davidson are probably ready to get a chance at centre half too, along with Hutchison (we are stocked with really good young talent in that position), Glass, Mochrie, Meekison, Watson, Fotheringham) to be used as squad depth is also needed.

[BudMill90]

Agreed. Butcher is a fkn nightmare for flying into tackles,an absolute raj and he holds Fuchs back from doing his job as our best holding midfielder because Fuchs can actually find a tangerine jersey with a pass.

Butcher and Powers didn't work and neither does Butcher and Fuchs.

Butcher and Fuchs does work. In a 442 with wingers where their sole job is to win the ball back and give it to creative players... you know the rest...