O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Trickytreesreds]

We’ll always disagree more than we agree Tricky, but as long as it doesn’t become personal that’s fine by me.
We obviously disagree about the NZ strategy but I don’t see it as insulting people, rather giving them a ‘wake up’ call and frankly I wish our own Government would be more proactive over such matters

As regards other aspects of Covid I’ll happily agree with you...the inaccessibility of GP’s and the behaviour of SERCO/DDDC are just two such examples.

That's fair comment RA.

I'll make a prediction then. The more governments try to tighten their grip(not just COVID|)
The more you will see reaction to any restrictions.
Even the yanks aren't impressed by her actions.
https://whitehousewire.com/2021/10/2...ine-passports/

I'm no fan of totalarian rules.

[swaledale]

Sorry Swale, I disagree.
She was asked out right, that "does she know she's creating a 2 tier society"?
Noy only did she answer "yes" bit the smile and delight in her face was very disturbing.
Sturgeon is actually very close to same reaction when she's English bashing.

Thats fair enough, re NZ, though I do think your interpreting her smile in a way which suits you, whereas to me she was just responding openly to questions put to and her presenting herself in a positive and honest manner.

Whereas Johnson does the opposite, uses smoke mirrors and downright lies whilst often planning (if he does plan) to do the exact opposite to what he is saying.

The bit about a two tier society is moot, I mean we already have a two if not multi tiered society in the Uk and most countries. Those with wealth and those who are poor, plus the people like you and me in between. Its a bit like when I used to discuss health care in the USA with some Americans, who saw government provision of free or even just affordable healthcare as "big government", apparently not being able to afford proper healthcare and suffering serious health issues or premature death was just part of the price for being "free".

If I look at the pure statistics, 28 deaths in NZ and 120,00 plus deaths in the UK then I would kind of think that maybe the "freedom" you are so concerned about is a moot point, after all nobody is being forced to have the vaccine, just that a number of activities may be limited if they don't on the basis that its for the common good.

Tbh I can't se how NZ can do anything else, they cannot practically be cut off from the rest of the world for ever and without high levels of vaccination, then when they do open up Covid will rip through the country with disastrous consequences.

Your comparison with Sturgeon is IMO not valid, her sole political aim is Scottish independence, therefore her actions and rhetoric inevitably lean heavily on this, IMO the case is flawed, but hey ho people are seduced by attractive messages about "sovereignty" and "taking back control" even when they have absolutely no idea about the practical consequences.

On the other hand, the Conservatives are slipping through legislation which is far more worrying, restricting the courts power to challenge potentially illegal government decisions, trying to restrict the independence of the Electoral Commission, restricting the right to demonstrate, trying to subvert international law and convention in turning migrant boats back even if it means their death, restricting a citizens right to vote by requiring ID, the list is long. Now those measures are authoritarian and represent a real threat to freedom and democracy.

[ramAnag]

That's fair comment RA.

I'll make a prediction then. The more governments try to tighten their grip(not just COVID|)
The more you will see reaction to any restrictions.
Even the yanks aren't impressed by her actions.
https://whitehousewire.com/2021/10/2...ine-passports/

I'm no fan of totalarian rules.

I can’t honestly put it better than Swale has above, Tricky.

Sometimes Governments have to act in this way. It might be ‘totalitarian’ if they were saying ‘everybody has to be vaccinated’, but they’re not...they’re saying ‘if you want to have access to everywhere and everything that all those who’ve been vaccinated have...then you must be vaccinated’.
I don’t have a problem with that. It’s protecting the vast majority from a largely selfish minority imo, stopping the spread of the virus and helping things get back to ‘normal’.

[MadAmster]

What about those who, for perfectly good and valid reasons (health issues for instance), CAN'T have the vaccine? Do we permanently restrict their "freedoms" It's not a simple, cut and dried issue IMO.

[MadAmster]

It's like I've said before. Over here we have an 87% fully vaccinated adult populace. Of the remaining 13% there are those with valid health issues who have been advised not to vaccinate by their physicians. There are others who choose not to vax due to religious reasons. There are a lot in the poorer areas of the 4 big cities who have no idea what it's all about due to language issues. Slowly but surely, Imams are advising vaccination. Doctors are going into these areas at places like markets and meeting places offering the vaccine. All well and good. Progress is slow but they're getting there slowly. That leaves the last group. The Conspeorists who believe the vax contains AI particles of some so that "they" can track us and/or monitor/influence our thoughts. Some of them believe the words of Sherri Tenpenny, an American doctor, who believes that the double jabbed will all die between 14 and 18 months after their 2nd jab. If she is right, then I have until sometime between mid October 2022 and mid February 2023 left to live. That would mean that by September of next year, we will have seen more than a million extra deaths here in NL. Four times that in the UK. I shudder to think how many worldwide. Once the mass deaths, if they happen, get noticed, I foresee massed marches of disgruntled people heading to the seat of Parliament in their country to have rather more than a word with Prime Ministers and Presidents the world over. Here in NL the police and armed forces are almost all fully jabbed. They aren't going to stop people exacting revenge as they will be dying off too thanks to the vax, in reality, they are likely to be towards the front of the crowd, just behind me.

Whatever we may think of our politicians, I don't believe they are that stupid that they aren't aware that the scenario I just sketched and that they knowingly signed their own death warrant by pushing "vaccines for all". That is why I am 100% convinced that the Conspeorists are wrong.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You just given your conspeorists about 15 more lines publicity than I would MA! Might make a good TV series along the lines of all the other "virus wipes out the world, survivors struggle on" type. Think what would be left - just rA's favourite underclass to rule the UK, if they could be arsed to get out of bed

[Andy_Faber]

I’m honestly not sure what your objection is. All party political points apart I’d say it looks like an example of decisive leadership rather than the dithering we have seen in this country.
For example...last week I went to two indoor events. The first involved temperature checks and the production of vaccine certificates for all as conditions of entry, but no rules about mask wearing. The second involved no checks at all but people being asked to wear masks throughout the performance which I, along with the vast majority, complied with.
Tbh I’m uncertain as to which I felt most comfortable with but I’d be happy to see everyone have to follow Government instruction over such matters as long as it is based on the science.
If people won’t get vaccinated that’s up to them...but please don’t expect to share the same enclosed air as those of us who have... seems fair enough to me.

Sit down before you read the next word.

Agreed.

Stay sat down

Also agreeing with most of what Swale wrote on this subject too

Edit: re NZ there IS a problem, I just spoke with a kiwi friend on a music forum about it. The measures are causing issues between the white community (massively vaccied) and the Maori community (much less so). Maoris feel they are being picked on, whites in Maori-rich areas feel Maoris are dragging them into greater restrictions that more white-rich areas. Division arises therefrom

[Andy_Faber]

It's like I've said before. Over here we have an 87% fully vaccinated adult populace. Of the remaining 13% there are those with valid health issues who have been advised not to vaccinate by their physicians. There are others who choose not to vax due to religious reasons. There are a lot in the poorer areas of the 4 big cities who have no idea what it's all about due to language issues. Slowly but surely, Imams are advising vaccination. Doctors are going into these areas at places like markets and meeting places offering the vaccine. All well and good. Progress is slow but they're getting there slowly. That leaves the last group. The Conspeorists who believe the vax contains AI particles of some so that "they" can track us and/or monitor/influence our thoughts. Some of them believe the words of Sherri Tenpenny, an American doctor, who believes that the double jabbed will all die between 14 and 18 months after their 2nd jab. If she is right, then I have until sometime between mid October 2022 and mid February 2023 left to live. That would mean that by September of next year, we will have seen more than a million extra deaths here in NL. Four times that in the UK. I shudder to think how many worldwide. Once the mass deaths, if they happen, get noticed, I foresee massed marches of disgruntled people heading to the seat of Parliament in their country to have rather more than a word with Prime Ministers and Presidents the world over. Here in NL the police and armed forces are almost all fully jabbed. They aren't going to stop people exacting revenge as they will be dying off too thanks to the vax, in reality, they are likely to be towards the front of the crowd, just behind me.

Whatever we may think of our politicians, I don't believe they are that stupid that they aren't aware that the scenario I just sketched and that they knowingly signed their own death warrant by pushing "vaccines for all". That is why I am 100% convinced that the Conspeorists are wrong.

Are you saying in this you support those non vaxing for religious reasons? I’m religious yet I don’t, a strange contradiction between we two

[swaledale]

What about those who, for perfectly good and valid reasons (health issues for instance), CAN'T have the vaccine? Do we permanently restrict their "freedoms" It's not a simple, cut and dried issue IMO.

From what I've seen MA, if someone cannot have the vaccine, they are exempt from such restrictions, so I don't see that is an issue.

When even the notoriously libertarian French have some restrictions on what the unvaccinated (without a valid exemption) can do then I think the point is a moot one. If anyone was going to react to restrictions, one would ahve thought the french would be the most vociferous, but most seem to have accepted it and got the vaccine!

As for the UK over a 1 million people marched against the Iraq war, it didn't stop it going ahead. As yet I haven't seen more than a few thousand on anti vax, anti lockdown marches and those leading that movement don't strike me as being people I need to worry about.

NZ for me is a completely different scenario, its hardly totalitarian.

If we get the deaths that American "doctor" predicts then there won't be many left to be demanding answers anyway!

[swaledale]

Sit down before you read the next word.

Agreed.

Stay sat down

Also agreeing with most of what Swale wrote on this subject too

Edit: re NZ there IS a problem, I just spoke with a kiwi friend on a music forum about it. The measures are causing issues between the white community (massively vaccied) and the Maori community (much less so). Maoris feel they are being picked on, whites in Maori-rich areas feel Maoris are dragging them into greater restrictions that more white-rich areas. Division arises therefrom

Agreed (shock) but then there will always be those who feel aggrieved by whatever government of whatever political leaning does.