O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA "Whether that ‘deal’ will be as beneficial as our original one as full members of the EU is all that should matter. After five years of wrangling the fact that our ‘sovereign’ Parliament now gets a whole half day to debate the bill is, imo, ridiculous."

Of course the post brexit deal will never be as good economically as the arrangements had we stayed in. Anyone who thought that would be the case is either deluded or simply spouting hot air. No sentient being could surely believe that we could cherry pick the good bits of the trade deal, cease paying the club membership fee and avoid some or all of the pan European objectives of the EU.

So if you plan to compare the post brexit deal to something to assess its efficacy or advantage, you cannot in all fairness compare it to the arrangements from staying in. In point of fact there isnt anything you can compare it to - you just have to assess it for what it is. Its not perfect, because its incomplete and the product of negotiation and compromise, but it could have been a lot worse, or even mot have existed. My overall assessment will depend on what they do for financial services, which the draft is still very coy about, saying little.

I'm sure it has its flaws and will need tweaking and fixing in the future but you cannot compare it to the "still a member" arrangement as that quite simply was not an option once the people voted leave and then the authorities signed the withdrawal documents. In comparing the trade deal to a continuing membership you are simply reopening the original "shall we leave" debate.

Over the years various people have perhaps inferred that we could replicate membership whilst being outside the club, but anyone stupid enough (and Im sure there are many such) have perhaps got what they deserve. As you regularly observe, I voted remain despite concerns about the greater, federal, Europe project. But not for one moment did I expect the full benefits of membership to be replicated: but maintaining tariff free trade of goods is a huge plus. If equivalency / passporting can be sorted for financial services then so much the better. If EHIC can be replaced by a global HIC, then good - as long as it eliminates the free health tourism that encumbers the NHS.

As for holidays and business travel, the changes aren't that big a deal. Joining a different queue for passports may take longer when you arrive, but may take less time when you depart, but frustrating as it is, an extra hour twice a year isn't a massive loss of privilege.

[ramAnag]

Of course the post brexit deal will never be as good economically as the arrangements had we stayed in. Anyone who thought that would be the case is either deluded or simply spouting hot air. No sentient being could surely believe that we could cherry pick the good bits of the trade deal, cease paying the club membership fee and avoid some or all of the pan European objectives of the EU.

So if you plan to compare the post brexit deal to something to assess its efficacy or advantage, you cannot in all fairness compare it to the arrangements from staying in.

Over the years various people have perhaps inferred that we could replicate membership whilst being outside the club, but anyone stupid enough (and Im sure there are many such) have perhaps got what they deserve.

...and there you have it. We’ve negotiated a worse deal for ourselves than the one we had, which is what Swale and I, amongst others, have been warning of for five years.

Remind me...didn’t Johnson’s big red lie - sorry bus - suggest otherwise? So...seeing as this is a Covid thread I’ll say no more on the subject, except to ask...why the hell should we trust him and his band a second time where the pandemic is concerned?

[Acido]

Hey Anag, its like the WWF Royal Rumble on here these days, everybody wanting to whack each other lol. And this isnt even down to Gunt this time.

[MadAmster]

...and there you have it. We’ve negotiated a worse deal for ourselves than the one we had, which is what Swale and I, amongst others, have been warning of for five years.

Remind me...didn’t Johnson’s big red lie - sorry bus - suggest otherwise? So...seeing as this is a Covid thread I’ll say no more on the subject, except to ask...why the hell should we trust him and his band a second time where the pandemic is concerned?

The eejit in #10 is gambling on the UK being able to more than compensate the cost by creating way more trade with the rest of the world. That has been the mantra from the off.

Free trade with the EU, at a price, that would be amply replaced by RoW trade. We shall see.

[ramAnag]

Hey Anag, its like the WWF Royal Rumble on here these days, everybody wanting to whack each other lol. And this isnt even down to Gunt this time.

Hi, Acido. I thought it’d been quite civilised all things considered. Gunt’s causing bother on the PNE thread. Not sure what it’s got to to with him but I’m staying out of it.

[Acido]

Hi, Acido. I thought it’d been quite civilised all things considered. Gunt’s causing bother on the PNE thread. Not sure what it’s got to to with him but I’m staying out of it.

Yes I also thought it best to stay away from that thread abaart the Nobbers (Preston) lol.
Big impressive win last night at Brum, have you lot finally turned the corner ?. Although that's a different subject int it.

[ramAnag]

Yes I also thought it best to stay away from that thread abaart the Nobbers (Preston) lol.
Big impressive win last night at Brum, have you lot finally turned the corner ?. Although that's a different subject int it.

Who knows mate? The whole country is on a roller coaster at the moment and it seems to have been magnified for Ram’s fans.
We had some good luck last night for a change and took full advantage. Rooney and Co. have got off to a good start and we look like a team. Wednesday on Friday, if you see what I mean, might tell us a lot, as will the takeover - if it ever happens - and the January window.

[swaledale]

Firstly, the Nightingale hospitals should have been used at the beginning of this second wave, to keep normal hospitals covid free. The problem with the staffing of the Nightingale hospitals is down to absenteeism, I know from a friend in the NHS that there are a significant number of people in her department who are 'isolating' or swinging the lead. These excessive numbers could be preventing the opening of the Nightingales.

I believe that the primary schools should remain open for the welfare of the children and to allow their parents to go to work. In a nod to you RA, these teachers should be treated as carers and be vaccinated. I think that children of key workers and those sitting exams should also return and their teachers vaccinated.

Parliament should return, but I don't think that much practical use will be gained from this. The Brexit deal will pass because nobody wants the alternative, so there's no debate to be had there. The government's handling of the covid crisis is being played out in the full glare of the media and I think that there is little that parliament can do to make much difference.

So the shortage of nurses (around 50,000 vacancies) has absolutely nothing to do with Tory government then? You know cutting the financial assistance for training, worsening their salaries and working conditions? I know a number of medical staff who have left the NHs, because they were fed up by May and Hunt's high handed unsympathetic handling of their issues.

Then its clear from the effects of Covid-19 and where it has hit hardest that this and previous Tory governments austerity policies, lack of a cohesive and meaningful social care and health policies, cutbacks in local authorities and other public services have all contributed to a worse situation than it would have been.

So its wrong to say the lack of staffing is down to absenteeism, it isn't its down to lack of qualified, experienced medical staff, I mean even this government admitted it was around 50,000 nurses short!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

...and there you have it. We’ve negotiated a worse deal for ourselves than the one we had, which is what Swale and I, amongst others, have been warning of for five years.

Remind me...didn’t Johnson’s big red lie - sorry bus - suggest otherwise? So...seeing as this is a Covid thread I’ll say no more on the subject, except to ask...why the hell should we trust him and his band a second time where the pandemic is concerned?

You miss the point entirely. We have a worse deal than staying in, at an economic level, which is what everyone has been saying, because we did not vote to leave the EU on the basis that e would get the same (or better) deal. We traded that against "sovereignty" and the cost of membership.

So the question is, has the less beneficial trade deal been a price worth paying for the winding down of our net contribution to EU funds, and the somewhat more tenuous sovereignty advantages

[Geoff Parkstone]

OK the above seems to be about 1/3rd of my previous post as parts have disappeared in transit. I shall not recreate it (probably to everyone's relief) but for so long as you RA continue to compare apples with oranges, you will never understand the dynamics of the change. Naturally you focus on the downsides, perhaps because you dont see the benefits that other more committed leavers might regards as important