O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[swaledale]

Curious that noone has mentioned being a member of the armed forces as being a job paying under 80k and carrying a danger of death or injury. I suppose that's because they are "paid to be killed" as opposed to having death as an occupational side-risk.

I wasn't being comprehensive in my examples, plus as has been said employment in the armed forces tends to be on the basis you may be asked to be in situations where another person is deliberately trying to maim or kill you!

And yes TTR prison officers are woefully underpaid and at considerable risk to life and limb

[Andy_Faber]

Andy you really are capable of the most staggering naivety at times.

Not sure where your 1-600 figure comes from and not down playing the murders of David Amess or Jo Cox for one moment, but people in infinitely more ordinary walks of life face physical attack on a much more regular basis.

Try being a bus driver, a taxi driver, an event steward, a policeman, a traffic warden, a nurse, a social worker or a teacher in today’s society.

Personally I’ve had to disarm pupils aiming to damage others with a variety of objects including screwdrivers, scissors, a house brick and a bicycle chain. I’ve been bitten and scratched to the extent that the police advised me to ‘press charges’. I didn’t in the circumstances. I’ve watched in disbelief as a disgruntled parent (mother) grabbed a colleague by the tie and cut it off with a pair of scissors for him having the audacity to be late back with her child from a school visit.

I see Dominic Raab complained of having received death threats. He’s not alone...I, and many others, have received them plenty of times from menacing thugs...yes sadly they can be parents too...sometimes in the confines of an office, sometimes, more worryingly, in the parent’s/child’s own environment.

Even my cousin...a hospital social worker in South Wales, who’s job was to ensure that those returning home after long term hospital care had the facilities they needed (i.e. a wholly helpful and supportive job) was threatened by a man wielding an electric saw when she visited one particular home.

Of course such anecdotes are not everyday occurrences but they are a great deal more commonplace than attacks on MP’s and are happening to people who, to the best of my knowledge, will not have earned anything close to the £80k plus expenses that MP’s receive.

rA, I don't mind the insult but you clearly weren't either an English or Maths teacher.

The English part is that you read, but didn't absorb, what I wrote - I was asking a question about MPs and MPs only, not making a comparison with any other profession.

The maths part is all about multiplication and extrapolation, and as you as usual included teachers in your response, lets extrapolate, and lets assume that 'facing a madman with a blade' means being killed on the job (there are no stats for any other outcome). The likelihood of being killed on the job as an MP based on those who were elected at 2019 is currently 1 in 650 (sorry I said 600). Extrapolating that to the teaching profession (which please believe me I admire, and recognise the dangers in their job, but that wasn't what I was discussing so I'll continue) and on the basis of the published figure of 548,078 teachers at last count, there would need to be 843 on the job killings for the risk to be the same.

Failure to understand the impact of extrapolation/interpolation is a repeated weakness of arguments put both here and in real life

Tricky I make the same point about me not making any point about comparison, but as you didn't insult me I'll accept your comment as just an observation

[Andy_Faber]

Oh come on, there are many occupations, most earning much less than £80K a year where there is a very high threat from members of the public, police, health workers, social workers being just 3 examples. Whilst a look at the rates of death and serious injury amongst agricultural and construction workers few of whom earn anywhere near £80K would suggest that the risk to MP's is being overblown because of two recent tragic incidents and that yes many people are willing to work in an environment where the risk of death or serious injury is high.

As written above, I wasn't making a comparison. Yes there are many professions where the risks are high, I was trying to stick to the matter in hand for once. TBH I wouldn't voluntarily choose any of the professions you mention, or those rA lists, for anyamount of cash, used as Iam to the relative cushiness of industry. Of course I recognise that many have no choice other than to do these jobs but I say again, that wasn't my point. To be blunt, dead at 80k a year, 20k a year or to be honest 1mill a year is still dead

[Geoff Parkstone]

Unless cryogenics improve that is, Andy - in which case Walt Disney with a huge net worth and probably income levels back in the day might be $1 million a year and then undead..........

[ramAnag]

rA, I don't mind the insult but you clearly weren't either an English or Maths teacher.

The English part is that you read, but didn't absorb, what I wrote - I was asking a question about MPs and MPs only, not making a comparison with any other profession.

The maths part is all about multiplication and extrapolation, and as you as usual included teachers in your response, lets extrapolate, and lets assume that 'facing a madman with a blade' means being killed on the job (there are no stats for any other outcome). The likelihood of being killed on the job as an MP based on those who were elected at 2019 is currently 1 in 650 (sorry I said 600). Extrapolating that to the teaching profession (which please believe me I admire, and recognise the dangers in their job, but that wasn't what I was discussing so I'll continue) and on the basis of the published figure of 548,078 teachers at last count, there would need to be 843 on the job killings for the risk to be the same.

Failure to understand the impact of extrapolation/interpolation is a repeated weakness of arguments put both here and in real life

Tricky I make the same point about me not making any point about comparison, but as you didn't insult me I'll accept your comment as just an observation

Sheesh...is being called ‘naive’ an insult? I don’t think so...it may be a critical appraisal of your response but I think you’re being a tad precious if you really believe you’ve been ‘insulted’.

Your point, I think, was...who would do an MP’s job for £80k when there was a 1/600 (or as you’ve since self corrected 1/650) risk of being stabbed.
The answer, as has been provided by at least three people, is a great many...because the risk of work related injury or death in a job paying a great deal less than £80k is considerably greater in a whole range of jobs from agriculture, construction, HMP to the ones I provided. Whether you wanted that comparison introduced is not the point...it’s one people are going to make.

I referenced teaching solely because it is an area of employment I am obviously knowledgeable about...in much the same way as TTR has referred to the prison service. I’m sorry if you somehow object to that.

Now I appreciate that you’re much keener on the extrapolation aspect than many, including me, but does there not have to be some sort of time factor in your 1/600 - 1/650 figure?
I haven’t properly researched this so I’m not speaking with any authority, but I think just nine UK MP’s, including one PM, have ever been killed, assassinated if you prefer, while in office. That’s in the last 211 years and is obviously nine too many. I’m sure others have been threatened...John Prescott, Steven Timms, Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg (well he said he was, it was never really substantiated)...spring to mind in recent times, but in answer to your original point...I think a great many would welcome the chance to earn £80k per year with the somewhat questionable level of risk you suggest.

[ramAnag]

P.S. Apologies to Steven Timms...he was seriously attacked with a knife and not just ‘threatened’.

[swaledale]

rA, I don't mind the insult but you clearly weren't either an English or Maths teacher.

The English part is that you read, but didn't absorb, what I wrote - I was asking a question about MPs and MPs only, not making a comparison with any other profession.

The maths part is all about multiplication and extrapolation, and as you as usual included teachers in your response, lets extrapolate, and lets assume that 'facing a madman with a blade' means being killed on the job (there are no stats for any other outcome). The likelihood of being killed on the job as an MP based on those who were elected at 2019 is currently 1 in 650 (sorry I said 600). Extrapolating that to the teaching profession (which please believe me I admire, and recognise the dangers in their job, but that wasn't what I was discussing so I'll continue) and on the basis of the published figure of 548,078 teachers at last count, there would need to be 843 on the job killings for the risk to be the same.

Failure to understand the impact of extrapolation/interpolation is a repeated weakness of arguments put both here and in real life

Tricky I make the same point about me not making any point about comparison, but as you didn't insult me I'll accept your comment as just an observation

It was a poorly made point then! Also your use of statistics is not only dubious but as statement on assessing risk actually completely bogus. its utter nonsense, 1 or as is actually the case 2 deaths amongst 650 people cannot be portrayed as a 1 or 2 in 650 chance and be any real indication of actual risk. I know accountants can do wonders with figures, I've seen some very impressive work which purported to demonstrate a financial situation far removed from reality but what you say your trying to say makes no sense whatsoever.

You were making a comment about why people would choose to do a job for £80K a year which has a 1 in 650 chance of "facing a madman with a blade", the extrapolation doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given that of those 650, there will be some due to their status or locale etc. who face a much higher risk than others.

[swaledale]

Sheesh...is being called ‘naive’ an insult? I don’t think so...it may be a critical appraisal of your response but I think you’re being a tad precious if you really believe you’ve been ‘insulted’.

Your point, I think, was...who would do an MP’s job for £80k when there was a 1/600 (or as you’ve since self corrected 1/650) risk of being stabbed.
The answer, as has been provided by at least three people, is a great many...because the risk of work related injury or death in a job paying a great deal less than £80k is considerably greater in a whole range of jobs from agriculture, construction, HMP to the ones I provided. Whether you wanted that comparison introduced is not the point...it’s one people are going to make.

I referenced teaching solely because it is an area of employment I am obviously knowledgeable about...in much the same way as TTR has referred to the prison service. I’m sorry if you somehow object to that.

Now I appreciate that you’re much keener on the extrapolation aspect than many, including me, but does there not have to be some sort of time factor in your 1/600 - 1/650 figure?
I haven’t properly researched this so I’m not speaking with any authority, but I think just nine UK MP’s, including one PM, have ever been killed, assassinated if you prefer, while in office. That’s in the last 211 years and is obviously nine too many. I’m sure others have been threatened...John Prescott, Steven Timms, Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg (well he said he was, it was never really substantiated)...spring to mind in recent times, but in answer to your original point...I think a great many would welcome the chance to earn £80k per year with the somewhat questionable level of risk you suggest.

Extrapolation simply cannot give a true picture of risk, so I'm puzzled as to the point he is trying to make, but then that is quite often the case to be fair.

[Trickytreesreds]

At the point of Tory bashing peaks over COVID. New Zealand was mentioned on here a few times as a wonderful example of how to manage a health crisis.
Well it seems scary to me, how since then. A Prime minister has used the event to impose a regime straight out of Chinas rule book.
Look at the delight in her face, when agreeing that she has in fact created a new apartheid system. Wow, just wow.
Makes Johnson look passive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdMS...nzherald.co.nz

[ramAnag]

At the point of Tory bashing peaks over COVID. New Zealand was mentioned on here a few times as a wonderful example of how to manage a health crisis.
Well it seems scary to me, how since then. A Prime minister has used the event to impose a regime straight out of Chinas rule book.
Look at the delight in her face, when agreeing that she has in fact created a new apartheid system. Wow, just wow.
Makes Johnson look passive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdMS...nzherald.co.nz

I’m honestly not sure what your objection is. All party political points apart I’d say it looks like an example of decisive leadership rather than the dithering we have seen in this country.
For example...last week I went to two indoor events. The first involved temperature checks and the production of vaccine certificates for all as conditions of entry, but no rules about mask wearing. The second involved no checks at all but people being asked to wear masks throughout the performance which I, along with the vast majority, complied with.
Tbh I’m uncertain as to which I felt most comfortable with but I’d be happy to see everyone have to follow Government instruction over such matters as long as it is based on the science.
If people won’t get vaccinated that’s up to them...but please don’t expect to share the same enclosed air as those of us who have... seems fair enough to me.