O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Ram59]

Here we are, let's stop corrupting other threads and discuss the Government's handling of Covid in it's own thread.

I'll try not to involve the media, as that is covered on a previous thread.

In the Government's defence, these are unprecedented times, creating many difficulties and many impossible decisions to get right.

On the other hand, many glaringly obvious wrong decisions have been made. So many stupid promises and claims have been made, regarding ppe supplies, tracing app and such.

In the fullness of time, you will hope that the true facts will come out. This will be difficult, as people will naturally try to cover up their own failings.

There you go, the floor is all yours.

[swaledale]

The latest ina long line of **** ups - Grant Shaps thinks 4 am Saturday is Sunday!! Minor but led people returning from France to believe quarantine started on Sunday.

Williamson - basically from handling the return of pupils to schools to the absurd notion that pupils could use the results of their mocks if unhappy with exam grades - funny that the government were advised 2 months ago that the methodology used to award grades would result in 39% of grades being lowered and that bright pupils from poorer performing state schools would be affected most and lo it has happened.

Test and track system, basically missing 70% of people, thousands of people employed as tracers haven't done anything for 2 months.

Overall what we have is what one gets when you vote in a known liar and bull****ter as PM who then appoints ministers on the basis of their brown nosing skills rather than their ability.

Have we ever had such a bunch of overpromoted useless ****s in a government of any colour?

[Ram59]

I believe that everyone should quarantine when returning from abroad, the numbers of cases in the EU and worldwide are higher now, than in March, when it is widely accepted that the government should have imposed a quarantine.

On the subject of A level results, RA will explode, I believe that the teachers have let down their students. Let's look at the stats, 40% of the teachers' predicted grades have been downgraded, but the downgraded grades are still 2% higher than last year. If the teachers' grades are to be believed, then we must have a one off year full of 'Einsteins'. If we do as Mrs Crankie or the shadow education secretary says, giving grades as per teacher's assessments, it would mean an unprecedented increase in grades. These grades would show a 14% increase on last year's results.

Of course, there are individual cases where student's have been treated unfairly, but hopefully, the appeals procedure will work, as it does in any year. It seems to be that a lot of struggling schools were on course for great results this year, if you listen to their heads.

[ramAnag]

I believe that everyone should quarantine when returning from abroad, the numbers of cases in the EU and worldwide are higher now, than in March, when it is widely accepted that the government should have imposed a quarantine.

On the subject of A level results, RA will explode, I believe that the teachers have let down their students. Let's look at the stats, 40% of the teachers' predicted grades have been downgraded, but the downgraded grades are still 2% higher than last year. If the teachers' grades are to be believed, then we must have a one off year full of 'Einsteins'. If we do as Mrs Crankie or the shadow education secretary says, giving grades as per teacher's assessments, it would mean an unprecedented increase in grades. These grades would show a 14% increase on last year's results.

Of course, there are individual cases where student's have been treated unfairly, but hopefully, the appeals procedure will work, as it does in any year. It seems to be that a lot of struggling schools were on course for great results this year, if you listen to their heads.

Why would I ‘explode’, Ram? You and GP have become very fond of suggesting what ‘RA’ - and Swale or mista - will do/think etc but it’s invariably unfounded.

Do I think/have I ever suggested that teachers and head teachers are beyond reproach? Of course not. There are good and bad in all walks - and professions - of life. Simple as that and teachers are no exception.
I know of at least one teacher who has made the most of the opportunity provided for non attendance. On the other hand I also know that my daughter worked in school every single day of the last half term and that the two schools my wife and I worked in prior to retirement have remained open throughout the pandemic...even providing a ‘social service’ through the Easter holidays.

I don’t doubt for a moment that ‘opportunist heads’, as described by GP, exist and I share his contempt for them, however have most
teachers let down their students? I don’t think so.

I spent most of my career working with 14-16 year olds so I have to go back almost half a century to remember A levels. They were always, as with most exams, something of a lottery and that seems to be being replicated, albeit in another form, this year.

Much more important though than the ‘distraction’ of A level results is what will be happening in September. It will not be the fault of teachers if parents do not feel sufficiently confident in the physical ability of schools to follow social distancing rules.

The government, in the form of Gavin Williamson - aka Frank Spencer - has known about the problem for months but simply not tackled it. They love to take the credit for ‘building’ new hospitals so quickly back in March and April but in fact they did no such thing. They requisitioned certain buildings and equipped them as, largely and thankfully unused, hospitals.
Such action was worthy of praise but why haven’t they taken similar steps with schools?
Time after time we hear the mantra that all pupils will return to school as normal in September and hang wringing Frank tells us there’ll be fines for parents who don’t conform to this ‘moral responsibility’.

It won’t work...teachers, pupils and, above all, parents have justifiable concerns. You cannot safely fit a full class of pupils into a classroom with dimensions that defy all other ‘new normal’ rules regarding social distancing. Steps such as the acquisition of alternative/temporary buildings and the ’upskilling’ of teaching assistants should already be in place but unfortunately we have a Prime Minister and an Education Secretary who haven’t a clue and nothing has been done.

What I suspect you’ll see very soon is pupils on part time (50% at best) timetables and a great deal of online teaching for those with the equipment, parental support/capability, and motivation to make the most of it.

Ultimately the current A level fiasco will, I suspect, make little difference. What happens in all areas of schooling from September onwards will...but I don’t think you can blame teachers for the abject lack of planning.

[swaledale]

Why would I ‘explode’, Ram? You and GP have become very fond of suggesting what ‘RA’ - and Swale or mista - will do/think etc but it’s invariably unfounded.

Do I think/have I ever suggested that teachers and head teachers are beyond reproach? Of course not. There are good and bad in all walks - and professions - of life. Simple as that and teachers are no exception.
I know of at least one teacher who has made the most of the opportunity provided for non attendance. On the other hand I also know that my daughter worked in school every single day of the last half term and that the two schools my wife and I worked in prior to retirement have remained open throughout the pandemic...even providing a ‘social service’ through the Easter holidays.

I don’t doubt for a moment that ‘opportunist heads’, as described by GP, exist and I share his contempt for them, however have most
teachers let down their students? I don’t think so.

I spent most of my career working with 14-16 year olds so I have to go back almost half a century to remember A levels. They were always, as with most exams, something of a lottery and that seems to be being replicated, albeit in another form, this year.

Much more important though than the ‘distraction’ of A level results is what will be happening in September. It will not be the fault of teachers if parents do not feel sufficiently confident in the physical ability of schools to follow social distancing rules.

The government, in the form of Gavin Williamson - aka Frank Spencer - has known about the problem for months but simply not tackled it. They love to take the credit for ‘building’ new hospitals so quickly back in March and April but in fact they did no such thing. They requisitioned certain buildings and equipped them as, largely and thankfully unused, hospitals.
Such action was worthy of praise but why haven’t they taken similar steps with schools?
Time after time we hear the mantra that all pupils will return to school as normal in September and hang wringing Frank tells us there’ll be fines for parents who don’t conform to this ‘moral responsibility’.

It won’t work...teachers, pupils and, above all, parents have justifiable concerns. You cannot safely fit a full class of pupils into a classroom with dimensions that defy all other ‘new normal’ rules regarding social distancing. Steps such as the acquisition of alternative/temporary buildings and the ’upskilling’ of teaching assistants should already be in place but unfortunately we have a Prime Minister and an Education Secretary who haven’t a clue and nothing has been done.

What I suspect you’ll see very soon is pupils on part time (50% at best) timetables and a great deal of online teaching for those with the equipment, parental support/capability, and motivation to make the most of it.

Ultimately the current A level fiasco will, I suspect, make little difference. What happens in all areas of schooling from September onwards will...but I don’t think you can blame teachers for the abject lack of planning.

Agree with most of what you say, but on children returning to schools, its got to happen, much worse for the children to miss more education and roam the streets not socially distancing and the risk to teachers? Got to be lower than medics, retail staff, transport staff et al who have worked through the pandemic without significantly higher death rates.

I accept there may be some particularly vulnerable teachers who will need special measures, but vulnerable staff in other employment such as retail and transport who meet hundreds if not thousands of different people everyday from different locations are back at work and seem to be coping, so managing far less pupils who are known and who come from the same place each day should be simple and in fact it is because other countries have done it.

However, doubt this government will be able to manage it!

If the government want to know how to do it, well there are plenty of countries who managed it in May, so go and see how Denmark (as one example) are doing it!

[Andy_Faber]

Agree with most of what you say, but on children returning to schools, its got to happen, much worse for the children to miss more education and roam the streets not socially distancing and the risk to teachers? Got to be lower than medics, retail staff, transport staff et al who have worked through the pandemic without significantly higher death rates.

I accept there may be some particularly vulnerable teachers who will need special measures, but vulnerable staff in other employment such as retail and transport who meet hundreds if not thousands of different people everyday from different locations are back at work and seem to be coping, so managing far less pupils who are known and who come from the same place each day should be simple and in fact it is because other countries have done it.

However, doubt this government will be able to manage it!

If the government want to know how to do it, well there are plenty of countries who managed it in May, so go and see how Denmark (as one example) are doing it!

Not particularly pro- or anti- govt, I've been checking out the BBC website, pretty informative and looks at stuff from a lot of angles. Sorry if y'all already check this out https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274

[ramAnag]

Not particularly pro- or anti- govt, I've been checking out the BBC website, pretty informative and looks at stuff from a lot of angles. Sorry if y'all already check this out https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274

Wow...AF has something positive to say about the BBC shocker.

[ramAnag]

Agree with most of what you say, but on children returning to schools, its got to happen, much worse for the children to miss more education and roam the streets not socially distancing and the risk to teachers? Got to be lower than medics, retail staff, transport staff et al who have worked through the pandemic without significantly higher death rates.

I accept there may be some particularly vulnerable teachers who will need special measures, but vulnerable staff in other employment such as retail and transport who meet hundreds if not thousands of different people everyday from different locations are back at work and seem to be coping, so managing far less pupils who are known and who come from the same place each day should be simple and in fact it is because other countries have done it.

However, doubt this government will be able to manage it!

If the government want to know how to do it, well there are plenty of countries who managed it in May, so go and see how Denmark (as one example) are doing it!

I agree with you about how unacceptable it would be for children to be ‘roaming the streets not socially distancing’ and I haven’t actually mentioned ‘vulnerable teachers’...they should simply be confined to online provision...end of.

You’re also right that medics, retail - in the area of food/supermarkets anyway - and transport staff have been very much in the front line.

Having said that...my health centre waiting room remains out of action, I understand that many GP appointments are being carried out via the telephone, clothes shops don’t allow the fitting rooms to be used and even supermarkets - where staff, imo, deserve just as much of a clap as those in the NHS - are employing some sort of equation involving square footage of the store and the number of people allowed in at any one time.

Schools are, in all other situations, a known hotbed of viral transmission and even if, in general, younger people do not suffer such a potentially serious version of the virus they still have the capacity to take it home and trigger a new spike/second wave.

Obviously having a daughter who works in a primary school I have a personal concern for her welfare just as I would if she were a doctor, nurse or a supermarket worker. She was teaching half a class - thus giving social distancing a chance - throughout June and July with no apparent problem however, it is the prospect of teaching a full class - in accordance with Johnson’s ‘moral responsibility’ demands - that concerns me...not so much from a personal point of view but because the comparatively cramped conditions of most classrooms are the very conditions we are avoiding in all other buildings and are the conditions that are likely to encourage transmission of the virus which will then be taken home to parents, siblings and older family members.

[swaledale]

I agree with you about how unacceptable it would be for children to be ‘roaming the streets not socially distancing’ and I haven’t actually mentioned ‘vulnerable teachers’...they should simply be confined to online provision...end of.

You’re also right that medics, retail - in the area of food/supermarkets anyway - and transport staff have been very much in the front line.

Having said that...my health centre waiting room remains out of action, I understand that many GP appointments are being carried out via the telephone, clothes shops don’t allow the fitting rooms to be used and even supermarkets - where staff, imo, deserve just as much of a clap as those in the NHS - are employing some sort of equation involving square footage of the store and the number of people allowed in at any one time.

Schools are, in all other situations, a known hotbed of viral transmission and even if, in general, younger people do not suffer such a potentially serious version of the virus they still have the capacity to take it home and trigger a new spike/second wave.

Obviously having a daughter who works in a primary school I have a personal concern for her welfare just as I would if she were a doctor, nurse or a supermarket worker. She was teaching half a class - thus giving social distancing a chance - throughout June and July with no apparent problem however, it is the prospect of teaching a full class - in accordance with Johnson’s ‘moral responsibility’ demands - that concerns me...not so much from a personal point of view but because the comparatively cramped conditions of most classrooms are the very conditions we are avoiding in all other buildings and are the conditions that are likely to encourage transmission of the virus which will then be taken home to parents, siblings and older family members.

As I said rA, other countries including Denmark have managed to return children to school, it can't be that difficult to come up with a plan that enables schools to reopen with as little risk as possible.

The Government will follow its usual line, which is to blame others for its mismanagement!

[swaledale]

I believe that everyone should quarantine when returning from abroad, the numbers of cases in the EU and worldwide are higher now, than in March, when it is widely accepted that the government should have imposed a quarantine.

On the subject of A level results, RA will explode, I believe that the teachers have let down their students. Let's look at the stats, 40% of the teachers' predicted grades have been downgraded, but the downgraded grades are still 2% higher than last year. If the teachers' grades are to be believed, then we must have a one off year full of 'Einsteins'. If we do as Mrs Crankie or the shadow education secretary says, giving grades as per teacher's assessments, it would mean an unprecedented increase in grades. These grades would show a 14% increase on last year's results.

Of course, there are individual cases where student's have been treated unfairly, but hopefully, the appeals procedure will work, as it does in any year. It seems to be that a lot of struggling schools were on course for great results this year, if you listen to their heads.

Not sure thats true, what I've seen is heads pointing out that the results awarded are significantly less than historic results which is borne out by examples I've looked at.

Not sure how you can blame teachers either, they didn't over predict pupils grades by 40% (its actually impossible under the system they have to work to to do that!) and that is also blown out of the water by the guy who having looked at the system to be used predicted that OFQUAL would downgrade the results by 39% and told the government this over a month ago! He had no idea what the teachers would predict, but had done a mathematical calculation as to how the moderation process would work and that was his conclusion, which was spot on!

Firstly teachers don't just give an assessment for a predicted grade, they have to work within OFQUALs guidelines - their predictions involve ranking all pupils they are assessing in each subject, from 1- 20 or however many pupils there are, oh and they cant rank a pupil equal 3rd, one has to be 3rd and the other 4th these rankings are then evidenced by using grades obtained by pupils in As levels and actual work they have done in school, plus reference to their GCSE score.

As for the system used then to determine the actual grades - this highlights the issue.

"Dave Thomson, chief statistician at education think tank FFT, illustrated the problem starkly with figures from a real, anonymous, school. At that school, he writes: “12.5% of entrants achieved A* between 2017 and 2019. And none achieved a grade U”. So, what of the school’s 2020 exam-less results?

That historic data is combined with information about individual students in a process called the “prior attainment adjustment”. This is the part of the process which has been waved away over the past week as “the model” or “the algorithm” by ministers, and it involves trying to use data about A-level pupils, including their GCSE grades, to judge how accurate their predicted grades are.

For the school Thomson analysed, that adjustment process took a school which had not had a U grade for three years, and predicted a 2.3% chance of a U grade in 2020; and the historic 12.5% A* achievement was downgraded to a 5.71% chance of that grade this year.

From there, the rounding process wrecks things further. That school, with its class of 27, was given one A* and one U – 3.7% for each. “This seems rather harsh,” Thomson writes, “given that the model prediction is for fewer than one pupil (2.30%, when each pupil counts as 3.70%) to achieve this grade.

Beyond the rounding, though, it is the adjustment process that “is absolutely fundamental to understanding how this year’s grades have been calculated”.

“Unfortunately, it raises more questions than it answers,” he says.

And that U, which was only ever predicted for just half a pupil, must be given to one pupil – whoever is ranked bottom of class by teachers – no matter how well that individual performed."

The system used is clearly flawed and the government knew this to be the case.

Couple that with the fact that Private Schools results are less affected because their averages over the years are higher (because they avoid entering less able pupils into subjects and have fewer pupils put forward for an exam) compared with say a state comprehensive who will have more pupils with a wider range of ability.

End result, some very bright pupils who have historically scored highly in GCSE's and As levels are having grade reductions.

These grade reductions are meaningful if one is looking to do certain careers, like medicine for instance. But also at the lower end will severely damage a pupils career prospects.

So we have a system applied which reinforces the inequality between those who are well off and those who come from lower income backgrounds, we have a generation of children already badly affected by a lack of education for 4 months and its summarily dismissed as being the fault of teachers?

Whether the Scottish answer is correct or not, the government have had 5 months to tackle this matter, did nothing despite knowing what would happen and then suddenly decided an appeal based on mock exam results was OK, when its ludicrous because there is no standard on how mock exams are done.

In the circumstances and accepting this is an exceptional year, allowing the predicted grades arrived at by teachers under a regime set out by OFQUAL would be the fairest. So some may get inflated results? So what? Their start in life would not be disadvantaged and after that whatever they do will be up to them and their own efforts, but at least they wouldn't have been unfairly penalised from the start!